Balk induced by the batter

[HumblePie]

I need help ...

I have come to understand, possibly erroneously, that in FED, virtually ANYTHING a batter does that induces a balk (raises his hand to call time, looks back at me, both, takes a puppy step backward as he does it) would be cause to nullify the balk, as both the pitcher and batter have erred (made an infraction).

Now as I read the Rules Book and the Case Book, I only see this rule effected by the batter stepping out of the box and thus, causing a balk.

One partner tells me (convincingly, although not with a rule reference) that the "stepping out of the box" issue is in the book to show us how we call automatic strikes, but that ANYTHING the batter does that induces a balk shall result in the balk nullified and start from scratch.

 

I had a JV game tonight.  Batter raised his hand for time, then looked back at me and took what I call a "puppy step" back, but not out of the box. The pitcher CLEARLY stopped his motion seeing the batter look back with his hand up.  My partner called a balk, and I nullified it based on the batter inducing it.  Very mild discussion with the head coach, but being that he was up by ten runs, I think he let me off the hook rather easy.  When I told my partner after the game I think I may have stretched the spirit of that rule, he insisted that we got it right.  Now I'm not sure.

 

I'm all ears ...........

[Replacematt]

3 hours ago, HumblePie said:

Now as I read the Rules Book and the Case Book, I only see this rule effected by the batter stepping out of the box and thus, causing a balk.

I think you need a new rule book...what does the FED rule actually say? 

 

[johnnyg08]

You'll be more than okay if you operate off of the thought that a batter can't cause a balk. 

[HumblePie]

44 minutes ago, johnnyg08 said:

You'll be more than okay if you operate off of the thought that a batter can't cause a balk. 

Thx ... but can you provide rule refs and casebook refs?

[noumpere]

In an old book I have (but not handy) under pitcher - balks (6-4?) it says something like "not a balk if the batter steps out of the box with one or both feet or raises a hand to request time"  That latter part is what you said happened in your play.

 

And, with all due respect to those who want to interpret the rule book  literally and narrowly, the batter is "always" making some such motion when he requests "time."

[Replacematt]

3 hours ago, HumblePie said:

Thx ... but can you provide rule refs and casebook refs?

6-2-4d.

[BLWizzRanger]

3 hours ago, noumpere said:

In an old book I have (but not handy) under pitcher - balks (6-4?) it says something like "not a balk if the batter steps out of the box with one or both feet or raises a hand to request time"  That latter part is what you said happened in your play.

 

And, with all due respect to those who want to interpret the rule book  literally and narrowly, the batter is "always" making some such motion when he requests "time."

I could see a scenario where a younger player, maybe as old as 9th grade with no where-with-all, would just bend down and tie his shoes in the box. Thinking he had a time out, he would just do it.  The pitcher would probably stop as well. 

The batter cannot cause a balk!

[Velho]

4 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

You'll be more than okay if you operate off of the thought that a batter can't cause a balk. 

1 minute ago, BLWizzRanger said:

The batter cannot cause a balk!

If I may, since I can see it being read both ways, can we get explicit what y'all mean by this statement?

What you are saying is that if a pitcher commits what qualifies as a balk because of an action by the batter, no balk is called but rather play is stopped, we reset, and resume play as if nothing had happened (some may call it a 'do-over').

A qualifying action by the batter would be stepping out of the box, raising a hand asking for time, completely disengaging with their at bat (such as tying their shoe or turning to tell dad to be quiet), or trying to distract the pitcher in some way (some actions will be clearer than others and up to PU judgment).

Just don't want things to get misinterpreted.

[BLWizzRanger]

I would say so.  That is the way I was taught.

But it is a fine line in a batter doing things in the box that you might expect him to do (hand up and calling time, stepping out of the box) and an unsportsmanlike act in reading 3.3.1 (n) call "time" or use any command or commit any act for purpose of causing a balk."

I think it would be directed to other team members (runners, players in the dugouts/bullpens, coaches) and batters in unorthodox actions (screaming at the pitcher? making googly eyes? bending extremely low during a pitch?).

just my thoughts....

[jimurrayalterego]

4 hours ago, noumpere said:

 

 

And, with all due respect to those who want to interpret the rule book  literally and narrowly, the batter is "always" making some such motion when he requests "time."

An MLB umpire called a balk when a batter verbalizing time caused a pitcher to stop. A year later they changed the wording from "stepped out of the box" to "If after the pitcher starts his windup or comes to a “set position” with a runner on, he does not go through with his pitch because the batter has inadvertently caused the pitcher to interrupt his delivery, it shall not be called a balk."

[HumblePie]

NFHS 2025 RULES BOOK

Page 44. Rule 6-2 Art 4 d.1.(c)

 

"If the pitcher, with a runner on base, stops or hesitates in the delivery because the batter steps out of the box (a) with one foot or (b) with both feet or (c) holds up a hand to request "Time," it shall not be a balk. In (a) and (c), there is no penalty on either the batter or the pitcher. The Umpire shall call "Time" and begin play anew.

[jimurrayalterego]

22 minutes ago, HumblePie said:

NFHS 2025 RULES BOOK

Page 44. Rule 6-2 Art 4 d.1.(c)

 

"If the pitcher, with a runner on base, stops or hesitates in the delivery because the batter steps out of the box (a) with one foot or (b) with both feet or (c) holds up a hand to request "Time," it shall not be a balk. In (a) and (c), there is no penalty on either the batter or the pitcher. The Umpire shall call "Time" and begin play anew.

MLB's change after the MLB ump ruled literally should convince you how to rule.

[johnnyg08]

3 hours ago, Velho said:

If I may, since I can see it being read both ways, can we get explicit what y'all mean by this statement?

What you are saying is that if a pitcher commits what qualifies as a balk because of an action by the batter, no balk is called but rather play is stopped, we reset, and resume play as if nothing had happened (some may call it a 'do-over').

A qualifying action by the batter would be stepping out of the box, raising a hand asking for time, completely disengaging with their at bat (such as tying their shoe or turning to tell dad to be quiet), or trying to distract the pitcher in some way (some actions will be clearer than others and up to PU judgment).

Just don't want things to get misinterpreted.

I want to keep it simple because this is generally an easy concept if we keep it easy.

[Velho]

1 hour ago, johnnyg08 said:

I want to keep it simple because this is generally an easy concept if we keep it easy.

Understood and agreed. I expanded on the simple statements because I didn't want "batter can't cause a balk" to be interpreted as "the batter is incapable of causing a balk so it's always a balk that should be called"

[johnnyg08]

1 hour ago, Velho said:

Understood and agreed. I expanded on the simple statements because I didn't want "batter can't cause a balk" to be interpreted as "the batter is incapable of causing a balk so it's always a balk that should be called"

Makes sense. 

[Thatsnotyou]

Smart batters won’t take a hand off the bat and will just verbalize time. That way if they don’t get it, they are ready to hit. 
 

A verbal time call that causes the pitcher to stop (sometimes batters are loud with it) - I’m not balking that either, just as outlined above. 
 

I do like when hitters get in the box with a hand off - and leave it off. Then the pitcher looks in for a sign - but wait, my hand is up!

Usually gets a “put your hand on the bat” from me. 

[Replacematt]

17 minutes ago, Thatsnotyou said:

Smart batters won’t take a hand off the bat and will just verbalize time. That way if they don’t get it, they are ready to hit. 
 

A verbal time call that causes the pitcher to stop (sometimes batters are loud with it) - I’m not balking that either, just as outlined above. 
 

I do like when hitters get in the box with a hand off - and leave it off. Then the pitcher looks in for a sign - but wait, my hand is up!

Usually gets a “put your hand on the bat” from me. 

Why would you be putting your hand up at that point? There's no reason to kill the play.

Let the batter dig in, and let the pitcher get their signs. If the pitcher starts to come set before the batter is ready, then call time when that happens. If the batter is dawdling, then the directives can come out.

[MadMax]

On 2/19/2025 at 5:38 PM, Velho said:

I expanded on the simple statements because I didn't want "batter can't cause a balk" to be interpreted as "the batter is incapable of causing a balk so it's always a balk that should be called"

PerfectGame tournament, 15U, and a batter for a team with a... I won't say "control freak", but instead... particular 3BC, trots (not walks, trots) up to the box (with R1), eager as punch to start his at-bat. Mind you, he practically hops into the box, with so much gusto I was tempted to say, "Mazel tov!" 3BC, loud and proud, bellows, "Step out!" Batter leaps back out of the box. 
I spy, from the corner of mine eye, the F1 straighten up and improperly disengage. I immediately start with, "Time... <leave mask on, right hand brought up for time mechanic and towards F1, and peer spears towards 3BC> Don't do that. If your batter steps into the box, don't be tellin' him to step back out. That's dangerous." 3BC looks back at me, with 90 feet of incredulity, and gives me a "whatever" mutter-and-hand-wave. I then just speak quietly to the batter, "If there's a sign you're supposed to get, do it before you set up in the box, ay-yight?"
"Sorry, sir."
"Alright... ready now? <checks F1, back engaged> and... Play!"

I didn't give that 3BC, or anyone else, even a chance to assess or ask about a Balk. 

Edited February 21, 2025 by MadMax
Made the "improper" more discreet

[HumblePie]

So ...

To put a bow on this topic, are we (mostly) in agreement that the FED Rulebook gives three good examples, but not an exhaustive list, of ways that a batter can cause (even inadvertently) a balk?

Another way I've seen it happen is when a batter simply seems to lose concentration ... pitcher is set, and the batter looks down and messes with his grip or his gloves ... point being, he looks away from the pitcher and the pitcher (too nice of a kid for his own good) stops his motion.

With safety rules in place to the point of sterilizing the game, I would think the FED Gods in Indianapolis would expect us to congratulate the young pitcher for being considerate enough not to throw an 88-mph heater when he sees the batter is not looking ready.

[SeeingEyeDog]

Over the years, we've all seen things creep into the culture of The Game...especially at the high school level. And it all happens (or not) to varying degrees in different markets. What was a problem for me in my market 10 years ago is now suddenly a problem in your market...and all other kinds of "regional insanity". I swear the spread on this occurs when somewhat high level travel teams go to tournaments several states away and either get exposed to new culture or "share" their culture and now we have all kinds of cross-contamination.

The big one in my market a few years back was the "Post-Anthem stare down". Teams lined up on the foul lines, the anthem is played, the anthem ends...most of the teams' players return to their dugouts to start the game except...one representative from each team would then remain on the line trying to be the last one. And they'd stare each other down and then all of that spilled into the game at hand and we all have a "real fun" night at the ballpark. I don't remember as a baseball community how we got that one solved but, it's now not a problem for us and hasn't been since before COVID.

The current "culture trend" in my local game mirrors a lot of our discussion here. The scenario is usually something like a rivalry game or a terrible mismatch game and The Game has become a contest of "who can disrupt the other's pitcher best". So, we started hearing a lot of mumbled requests for time (not my problem...if I hear it, I will do my best to grant it as the rules allow), a lot of late/delayed hands going up and all other sorts of nonsense. Grappling onto NFHS vibe of "these are kids, let's reduce their risk", I finally started telling batters, "Time...(brush plate, on my way back)...you seem a bit uncertain about whether you should be stepping into the box or not. For your own safety, please do not step into the box until you are certain you are ready."

And admittedly, there have been some times (in travel games, never in high school games) where a batter steps into the box and is not "alert to the pitcher" and again...for his safety, I'm killing that loud and proud and I'll give a little tap to my own chest to indicate it's "my time" and again, quietly address the player about his safety. If it continues, I will grab his coach between innings. And that's the end of it.

As I have said on this before brothers...I'd rather have 50 people (players, coaches, parents, tournament directors, etc.) yelling at me about how I should not have been calling time in a particular situation when I know I did it to keep a kid safe...than to have just ONE parent standing there at the gate on my way out, upset because their kid sustained a serious injury because he wore a pitch and asking me why I didn't kill it. Now I'm not diving in front of any pitches to keep kids from getting hit but, I do what I can mechanically. It's like when we learned to drive and we learned, "The right of way is a guiding principle AND the law when it comes to operating a motor vehicle. But, does right of way matter when you're lying in a hospital bed because yes, you had the right of way and...you also had a chance to avoid the accident and didn't drive defensively?" (lol...enter the personal injury attorneys...)

~Dawg

[johnnyg08]

17 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

Over the years, we've all seen things creep into the culture of The Game...especially at the high school level. And it all happens (or not) to varying degrees in different markets. What was a problem for me in my market 10 years ago is now suddenly a problem in your market...and all other kinds of "regional insanity". I swear the spread on this occurs when somewhat high level travel teams go to tournaments several states away and either get exposed to new culture or "share" their culture and now we have all kinds of cross-contamination.

The big one in my market a few years back was the "Post-Anthem stare down". Teams lined up on the foul lines, the anthem is played, the anthem ends...most of the teams' players return to their dugouts to start the game except...one representative from each team would then remain on the line trying to be the last one. And they'd stare each other down and then all of that spilled into the game at hand and we all have a "real fun" night at the ballpark. I don't remember as a baseball community how we got that one solved but, it's now not a problem for us and hasn't been since before COVID.

The current "culture trend" in my local game mirrors a lot of our discussion here. The scenario is usually something like a rivalry game or a terrible mismatch game and The Game has become a contest of "who can disrupt the other's pitcher best". So, we started hearing a lot of mumbled requests for time (not my problem...if I hear it, I will do my best to grant it as the rules allow), a lot of late/delayed hands going up and all other sorts of nonsense. Grappling onto NFHS vibe of "these are kids, let's reduce their risk", I finally started telling batters, "Time...(brush plate, on my way back)...you seem a bit uncertain about whether you should be stepping into the box or not. For your own safety, please do not step into the box until you are certain you are ready."

And admittedly, there have been some times (in travel games, never in high school games) where a batter steps into the box and is not "alert to the pitcher" and again...for his safety, I'm killing that loud and proud and I'll give a little tap to my own chest to indicate it's "my time" and again, quietly address the player about his safety. If it continues, I will grab his coach between innings. And that's the end of it.

As I have said on this before brothers...I'd rather have 50 people (players, coaches, parents, tournament directors, etc.) yelling at me about how I should not have been calling time in a particular situation when I know I did it to keep a kid safe...than to have just ONE parent standing there at the gate on my way out, upset because their kid sustained a serious injury because he wore a pitch and asking me why I didn't kill it. Now I'm not diving in front of any pitches to keep kids from getting hit but, I do what I can mechanically. It's like when we learned to drive and we learned, "The right of way is a guiding principle AND the law when it comes to operating a motor vehicle. But, does right of way matter when you're lying in a hospital bed because yes, you had the right of way and...you also had a chance to avoid the accident and didn't drive defensively?" (lol...enter the personal injury attorneys...)

~Dawg

I agree if it's an issue of being alert to the pitcher or not...just stop it and I don't care what anyone thinks. I can call time whenever its needed. 

We still grant it way too often. It's lengthens the game. Unfortunately it's allowed in their club ball and it trickles in to our game. 

[Thatsnotyou]

On 2/19/2025 at 8:37 PM, Replacematt said:

Why would you be putting your hand up at that point? There's no reason to kill the play.

Let the batter dig in, and let the pitcher get their signs. If the pitcher starts to come set before the batter is ready, then call time when that happens. If the batter is dawdling, then the directives can come out.

Not me. The batter. 

[Richvee]

19 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

And admittedly, there have been some times (in travel games, never in high school games) where a batter steps into the box and is not "alert to the pitcher" and again...for his safety, I'm killing that loud and proud and I'll give a little tap to my own chest to indicate it's "my time" and again, quietly address the player about his safety. If it continues, I will grab his coach between innings. And that's the end of it.

Last season I started using the college mechanic, now a NCAA rule, about pitchers not starting the stretch or the windup until the batter is in the box and alert to the pitcher. Im not warning or penalizing a pitcher, I’m just not  letting him start before the batter is looking at the pitcher and ready. I’ll step out, call time and tell the pitcher not to start until the batter is ready. Only one coach so far has anything to say, and said nothing after I said “it’s a safety issue coach. I’m not letting your pitcher throw a pitch when the batter isn’t looking. Your batters will get the same courtesy”. 

[Replacematt]

1 hour ago, Richvee said:

Last season I started using the college mechanic, now a NCAA rule, about pitchers not starting the stretch or the windup until the batter is in the box and alert to the pitcher. Im not warning or penalizing a pitcher, I’m just not  letting him start before the batter is looking at the pitcher and ready. I’ll step out, call time and tell the pitcher not to start until the batter is ready. Only one coach so far has anything to say, and said nothing after I said “it’s a safety issue coach. I’m not letting your pitcher throw a pitch when the batter isn’t looking. Your batters will get the same courtesy”. 

I will say that I felt a bit of validation that they coincidentally adopted what I had been using for years. 

No need to call time while the batter gets ready, no need to hold the pitcher up from getting signs...no need to do anything until it is actually needed to protect the batter's safety (or in games without an action clock, get the game moving.)

Less calling of time>better pace of play>less time for people to marinate and spiral in their thoughts>fewer behavior problems and more baseball in a shorter time. People can be incredulous when considering the premise of how minor, seemingly-unrelated things can have a major impact on game management, but this is a prime example. 

[The Man in Blue]

21 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

And they'd stare each other down and then all of that spilled into the game at hand and we all have a "real fun" night at the ballpark. I don't remember as a baseball community how we got that one solved but, it's now not a problem for us and hasn't been since before COVID.

The current "culture trend" in my local game mirrors a lot of our discussion here. The scenario is usually something like a rivalry game or a terrible mismatch game and The Game has become a contest of "who can disrupt the other's pitcher best". So, we started hearing a lot of mumbled requests for time (not my problem...

 

Standoffs . . . Fed called it out under sportsmanship.  Not sure if that actually cut it out, as I actually have never seen one (other than on TV).  I just remember that being a specific POE.

On the matter at hand, one of my quickest and biggest pet peeves is the kid or coach who wants to cop the "I/He called time, Blue!" attitude.  That gets you a quick and terse explanation as to who can actually call time and why.