Courtesy Runners Case play

[BLWizzRanger]

3.1.1 Situation R is the one I am referring to.... pretty much if you discover the same CR being used for both positions, the CR is out upon discovery.

When will this ever come into play?  Hear me out...

When CR is brought into the game, the HP is supposed to record it and announce it.  A subsequent times one is used, the HP should be doing the same and should catch a HC trying to use a CR illegally.  If the HP screws up and doesn't catch it, the CR is in the game - it would take opposing team to catch it.  And here is the rub.... the HP screwed up by allowing it.  Are we supposed to punish the team for the HP screwup?  And what if the HP catches on two pitches down the line?  Is the HP supposed to stay silent like a BOO and make the opposing team catch it?

I wouldn't punish them for my mistake and I would fix it on the spot.  Would you do anything different?

[lawump]

48 minutes ago, BLWizzRanger said:

Are we supposed to punish the team for the HP screwup?  And what if the HP catches on two pitches down the line?  Is the HP supposed to stay silent like a BOO and make the opposing team catch it?

I wouldn't punish them for my mistake and I would fix it on the spot.  Would you do anything different?

Let me take these four questions in order:

(1) You're not punishing the team for the umpire's screw-up.  You're punishing the team for their own screw up.  Teams are required to know the rules.  The fact that the umpire didn't preventatively catch the team about to break a rule (even if you believe the umpire should have) does not remove the requirement that the team is not allowed to break the rules (in this case, the courtesy runner rule).

(2)  A player who violates the courtesy runner rule is an illegal substitute.  (See Paragraph 7 of the Suggested Speed-Up Rules on Pg. 67 of the 2025 rulebook and 2-36-3 (e)).  An illegal substitute, unlike batting out of order, may be discovered by either team or "by an umpire" (3-1-1).  So, if the umpire catches it two pitches down the line, the CR will be called "out" and restricted to the dugout for the remainder of the game.

(3)  No, the plate umpire is not supposed to stay silent.  See (2), supra. and 3-1-1.

(4)  Yes, I'd call the runner out and restrict him to dugout for the remainder of the game.

I will add:

In my opinion, it is not even the umpire's screw up.  If the umpire can catch it and can prevent it...great.  But, it is not the umpire's fault if he doesn't; umpires are not required to pro-actively prevent teams from violating rules they may not fully understand.  The primary reason you make notations and records on your lineup card is not to prevent rules violations (though commendable, that's a secondary reason) it is so you have a record that you can refer to in case you are requested to adjudicate a potential rules violation.  The teams are supposed to know the rules and not violate them.  If a team is saved by an umpire who happens to have done a great job and caught a potential violation before it occurred...then they are lucky.  But if not, they are not off the hook because an umpire didn't do the team's job for them.

I will further add:

With respect to your comment, "I wouldn't punish them for my mistake and I would fix it on the spot,"...then you would likely lose a protest should the other team protest.  At least you would in my state.

 

[The Man in Blue]

4 hours ago, BLWizzRanger said:

If the HP screws up and doesn't catch it, the CR is in the game - it would take opposing team to catch it.  And here is the rub.... the HP screwed up by allowing it.  Are we supposed to punish the team for the HP screwup? 

 

Like @lawump said, it isn't our job to stop them.

TMIB: "Coach, 27 is the guy you want to use?"

Coach: "Yep." 

TMIB: "OK."

Let him take his spot, then call him out and bench him.

On my game card, I have a designated spot to record CCR and PCR each time.

 

[jimurrayalterego]

22 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

 

Like @lawump said, it isn't our job to stop them.

TMIB: "Coach, 27 is the guy you want to use?"

Coach: "Yep." 

TMIB: "OK."

Let him take his spot, then call him out and bench him.

On my game card, I have a designated spot to record CCR and PCR each time.

 

You don't have to let him take his spot. It's an announced sub. But I lean toward telling the coach that he already used him for the other position if I catch it.

[The Man in Blue]

33 minutes ago, jimurrayalterego said:

You don't have to let him take his spot. It's an announced sub. But I lean toward telling the coach that he already used him for the other position if I catch it.

Nor do you have to stop him.

I am not saying that preventative officiating isn't the way to go . . . I am saying it isn't our responsibility.

Obviously, the level matters.  Younger/lower levels? I am preventing.  Higher levels?  Not doing the coach's job for him.

[jimurrayalterego]

2 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

Nor do you have to stop him.

I am not saying that preventative officiating isn't the way to go . . . I am saying it isn't our responsibility.

Obviously, the level matters.  Younger/lower levels? I am preventing.  Higher levels?  Not doing the coach's job for him.

I haven't stopped him. I mentioned that he has used that player as a CR for the other position, which some umpires might miss but, since you have a lineup with that delineation and would catch it, would you want to play "gotcha"? The out would happen as soon as they made the sub and you announced it. Why let him walk to 1B?

[BLWizzRanger]

Lawump,  Thanks for the reply.  It has made me think and hopefully helps others down the line. Which is why I like this site so much because there is usually a lesson in each thread.

If I knew and I didn't stop/warn them, I would feel like I am setting them up - which could be picking up the dirty end of the stick and make the game go sideways. But, (I am playing mind games now and maybe changing my thoughts to it) I could remind them the rule at the first substitution and allow what was going to happen to happen. If they continued, it would be on them. lol.

WTBS, would it be a giveaway if I said to the coach:

[BLWizzRanger]

9 minutes ago, jimurrayalterego said:

I haven't stopped him. I mentioned that he has used that player as a CR for the other position, which some umpires might miss but, since you have a lineup with that delineation and would catch it, would you want to play "gotcha"? The out would happen as soon as they made the sub and you announced it. Why let him walk to 1B?

So what I am reading between you and TMIB, is that you are just saying quote Player 6 was used as a CR for the pitcher unquote and not mention anything else.  If he doesn't catch your drift and keeps with Player 6 for the catcher, you get the out?  I could live with that.

[834k3r]

3 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

Nor do you have to stop him.

I am not saying that preventative officiating isn't the way to go . . . I am saying it isn't our responsibility.

Obviously, the level matters.  Younger/lower levels? I am preventing.  Higher levels?  Not doing the coach's job for him.

I get what you're saying, but I think there will be a lot less hell to pay if you tell the coach he can't use a particular player as a CR instead of allowing it and then getting the out and restriction. Both are equally valid ways to handle it, but I'll take the method that won't see the coach in danger of getting himself ejected.

[Replacematt]

Fundamentally, I think we're at a point where we are discussing what are the umpire's responsibilities and options when presented with an illegal substitute. I think we can cast aside the portion of the discussion that is specific to courtesy runners, unless someone has a position that we would treat an illegal CR differently than other illegal substitutes. 

If the umpire doesn't catch it at the time of substitution, they don't. In this situation, we rely solely on the directed penalties if/when the substitute is discovered. No options here (but if it was an announced substitution, there is a question of why the umpire did not realize it at the time.)

If the umpire catches it, the question seems to be can/should the umpire keep the illegal player from entering?

I'll throw this out for the sharks: if we are given a lineup card with eight names, are we responsible for not accepting it until it is rectified? If there are multiple players with the same last name, are we responsible for getting initials? In every other situation that requires validation, recording, or changes involving the lineup, do we have responsibilities to ensure that it is proper?

Why would this be any different?

If HC comes out and attempts an illegal substitution on defense, whether intentionally or ignorantly, do we take the substitution and then eject the player before they can even get off the bench? Is that a good look?

This isn't a playing situation. This is administrative, so to speak. I can say that anywhere I work, if I had the knowledge and the opportunity to prevent such an illegal act and at least one ejection, and did not do so, it would go over like a pregnant woman on a pole vault.

[noumpere]

You can head off the problem, or you can have a lengthy discussion with the coach when you don't and it's discovered.  Use preventive umpiring.

[lawump]

Okay...now I'll share my actual story.  I'm open to criticism.  This is the only illegal substitute I've ever had in nearly 25-years of calling FED baseball.

High school game I'm the plate umpire.  Game is being played between region (conference) rivals; both of whom are state championship caliber programs (they've each won titles and they're contenders every year).  I'm not posting that information in an attempt to impress anyone with the fact that I was umpiring such a game.  Rather, it is an attempt to convey in words (which is hard to do) the atmosphere of the game.  (Intense game with a large and loud crowd.)  This was also a very well-played game (as one would expect) that was moving at a good pace (the game was in a "defensive flow".)

Late in the game (I believe bottom of the 6th), the home team's leadoff hitter got a single.  The head coach (coaching third base) started walking down the line and said, "Sully, 26 is going to courtesy run".  I took out my line-up cards and started to review.  FWIW, I write the courtesy runners (and charged conferences) on the back of the lineup cards.  I did a quick glance and saw that 26 had not been a CR previously.  So, I wrote (in shorthand), "26 CR F2, 6th".  

Lo and behold, two pitches later the visiting head coach comes out of the dugout and says, "Sully, can he do that?"  To which I replied, "do what?"  The coach said, "number 26 was used as a pinch runner back in the second inning."  (Aside: the teams knew that runs would be at a premium.  So, when the home team had a big, slow kid near the bottom of the batting order get on base in the second inning, they used 26 as a pinch runner.)

Now, should I have remembered that 26 was used as a pinch runner in the second?  Maybe.  The fact is that I did not.  And the reason I did not is that I was totally focused on balls & strikes and outs & safes due to the competitiveness of the game.

Should I have checked the front side of lineup card to make sure that 26 had not appeared in the game previously in some other capacity other than as a CR?  Maybe.  But, first, I wanted to keep the flow of the game going.  I just glanced at my CR notes on the back of my card and moved forward.  Second, I did (and still do) expect the coaches to know that you cannot use a player who had already appeared in the game in another capacity as a CR.

So there you go...there is my actual illegal substitute play.

As for the resolution?  The good news is that having earned the respect of most head coaches in my area over the last 20+ years (and having a good working relationship with almost all of them), the home head coach heard the visiting team's head coach's protest.  When I turned around to start walking toward the home team head coach, he walked towards me and just said, "I F*#Ked up didn't I?"  I said, "yes."  He asked what the penalty was, and I told him, and he simply said, "I'll never make that mistake again."  We've laughed about it several times since then.

[Replacematt]

9 hours ago, lawump said:

Okay...now I'll share my actual story.  I'm open to criticism.  This is the only illegal substitute I've ever had in nearly 25-years of calling FED baseball.

High school game I'm the plate umpire.  Game is being played between region (conference) rivals; both of whom are state championship caliber programs (they've each won titles and they're contenders every year).  I'm not posting that information in an attempt to impress anyone with the fact that I was umpiring such a game.  Rather, it is an attempt to convey in words (which is hard to do) the atmosphere of the game.  (Intense game with a large and loud crowd.)  This was also a very well-played game (as one would expect) that was moving at a good pace (the game was in a "defensive flow".)

Late in the game (I believe bottom of the 6th), the home team's leadoff hitter got a single.  The head coach (coaching third base) started walking down the line and said, "Sully, 26 is going to courtesy run".  I took out my line-up cards and started to review.  FWIW, I write the courtesy runners (and charged conferences) on the back of the lineup cards.  I did a quick glance and saw that 26 had not been a CR previously.  So, I wrote (in shorthand), "26 CR F2, 6th".  

Lo and behold, two pitches later the visiting head coach comes out of the dugout and says, "Sully, can he do that?"  To which I replied, "do what?"  The coach said, "number 26 was used as a pinch runner back in the second inning."  (Aside: the teams knew that runs would be at a premium.  So, when the home team had a big, slow kid near the bottom of the batting order get on base in the second inning, they used 26 as a pinch runner.)

Now, should I have remembered that 26 was used as a pinch runner in the second?  Maybe.  The fact is that I did not.  And the reason I did not is that I was totally focused on balls & strikes and outs & safes due to the competitiveness of the game.

Should I have checked the front side of lineup card to make sure that 26 had not appeared in the game previously in some other capacity other than as a CR?  Maybe.  But, first, I wanted to keep the flow of the game going.  I just glanced at my CR notes on the back of my card and moved forward.  Second, I did (and still do) expect the coaches to know that you cannot use a player who had already appeared in the game in another capacity as a CR.

So there you go...there is my actual illegal substitute play.

As for the resolution?  The good news is that having earned the respect of most head coaches in my area over the last 20+ years (and having a good working relationship with almost all of them), the home head coach heard the visiting team's head coach's protest.  When I turned around to start walking toward the home team head coach, he walked towards me and just said, "I F*#Ked up didn't I?"  I said, "yes."  He asked what the penalty was, and I told him, and he simply said, "I'll never make that mistake again."  We've laughed about it several times since then.

Here's a trick to avoid this situation, assuming you use the "A, B, C" method of tying the list of substitutes to the substitutions on the lineup.

Assuming that there are 24 or fewer subs listed, use Y and Z for the pitcher's CR and catcher's CR, respectively. Multiple players can have one or the other, but no one can have both, and no one can have a different letter and then one of these.

In this case, your lineup card would have an entry in the substitute list of something like "26 Smith A." (I use red ink for most of my notations.) When you go to the list to write a Y or Z after the proposed CR, you'll see that they have been in the game and cannot fulfill that role. (Or, if they've been a CR for the other position.)

Of course, you can use whatever you want if there are too many subs listed or you don't want to use letters. As long as you can tell what it is at a glance and it doesn't look similar to other notations you do, knock yourself out.

 

[Richvee]

1 hour ago, Replacematt said:

Here's a trick to avoid this situation, assuming you use the "A, B, C" method of tying the list of substitutes to the substitutions on the lineup.

Assuming that there are 24 or fewer subs listed, use Y and Z for the pitcher's CR and catcher's CR, respectively. Multiple players can have one or the other, but no one can have both, and no one can have a different letter and then one of these.

In this case, your lineup card would have an entry in the substitute list of something like "26 Smith A." (I use red ink for most of my notations.) When you go to the list to write a Y or Z after the proposed CR, you'll see that they have been in the game and cannot fulfill that role. (Or, if they've been a CR for the other position.)

Of course, you can use whatever you want if there are too many subs listed or you don't want to use letters. As long as you can tell what it is at a glance and it doesn't look similar to other notations you do, knock yourself out.

 

There’s many methods. I also like having it all on one side of the lineup card. I make sure I strike a line through a sub when he enters the game. I will circle ⭕️ a sub that courtesy runs and write CRC or CRP by their name. 

[Replacematt]

10 hours ago, Richvee said:

There’s many methods. I also like having it all on one side of the lineup card. I make sure I strike a line through a sub when he enters the game. I will circle ⭕️ a sub that courtesy runs and write CRC or CRP by their name. 

This brings up something that strikes me as odd...and maybe it's literally just me.

I cannot recall ever getting a lineup card that had two sides.

[Richvee]

3 hours ago, Replacematt said:

I cannot recall ever getting a lineup card that had two sides.

I think he's just referring to writing CR's , notes, etc. on the back. 

I'm trying to recall if I've ever seen a lineup card with subs listed on the back. If I did, they were probably written in by hand

[noumpere]

3 hours ago, Replacematt said:

I cannot recall ever getting a lineup card that had two sides.

Your lineup cards are mobius strips?

[Richvee]

6 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Your lineup cards are mobius strips?

Now THAT would be awkward 

[Replacematt]

39 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Your lineup cards are mobius strips?

A true Mobius strip has EXACTLY two sides...

[flyingron]

A mathematician confided
That a Möbius strip is one-sided,
And you'll get quite a laugh
If you cut one in half,
for it stays in one piece when divided.

 

A mathematician named Klein
Thought the Möbius band was divine.
Said he: “If you glue
together edges of two,
You'll get a weird bottle like mine."