NFHS 2 Strikes Rule

[NavyBlue]

NFHS 6-2-4d1.  This is the rule about the batter stepping out of the batter's box with two feet and getting one strike called for that action, and if the pitcher legally delivers a pitch, getting a second strike called.  Had a question posed last night I had never thought about.  Perhaps it's obvious and I just overlooked it (because of rareness of enforcement).  The rule states that the ball is live if the pitcher legally delivers.  So, if the batter had one strike, before this two feet out of the box shenanigans began, and if that legally delivered pitch happens to be uncaught, can the batter-runner advance to 1B on the uncaught third strike rule?  Both strikes two and three were called for rule violations, not because the ball was struck at, or potentially even in the strike zone. If the ball remains live by rule, I'd think he could advance.  Thanks.

[Richvee]

Rule specifically states ball is live. Hypothetically,  Batter can step out, pitcher can deliver a ball over the backstop, and BR would be awarded 1B. 

[SeeingEyeDog]

So again...we have a count that is 1 strike and we are under FED. The batter steps out of the box with both feet completely outside the batter's box and the pitch is legally delivered. That pitch is then U3K'd by F2. Mechanically and verbally, what are you doing here?

"The batter is out of the box with both feet and the pitch was legally delivered. By rule, that is strike 2 and strike 3. No catch! And the batter-runner may advance and...oh...the ball is still live."

I kid. We're not doing that. What are we doing?

~Dawg

[Replacematt]

1 hour ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

So again...we have a count that is 1 strike and we are under FED. The batter steps out of the box with both feet completely outside the batter's box and the pitch is legally delivered. That pitch is then U3K'd by F2. Mechanically and verbally, what are you doing here?

"The batter is out of the box with both feet and the pitch was legally delivered. By rule, that is strike 2 and strike 3. No catch! And the batter-runner may advance and...oh...the ball is still live."

I kid. We're not doing that. What are we doing?

~Dawg

Call the first (err, second) strike when they step out. Do a strike three mechanic (verbalizing it) and communicate the uncaught pitch. Wait for something to happen that will result in a call. 

Compare this to a steal of home, just a bit more confusing to everyone involved. Call the things in order as they happen.

[jimurrayalterego]

1 hour ago, Replacematt said:

Call the first (err, second) strike when they step out. Do a strike three mechanic (verbalizing it) and communicate the uncaught pitch. Wait for something to happen that will result in a call. 

Compare this to a steal of home, just a bit more confusing to everyone involved. Call the things in order as they happen.

How about we ignore whatever caseplay entails 2 strikes and just call 1 strike on the pitch, a pitch being delivered being evidence that the batter did not delay the game.

[The Man in Blue]

21 minutes ago, jimurrayalterego said:

How about we ignore whatever caseplay entails 2 strikes and just call 1 strike on the pitch, a pitch being delivered being evidence that the batter did not delay the game.

I may split some hairs here, but there are two penalties being applied, and neither one is about delaying the game despite it being lumped in to that rule.

The first strike is being called on the delivered pitch for attempting to disconcert the pitcher.  6-2-4(d)1 is a pitching rule about delivering in a non-stop manner.  The penalty is for trying to cause the pitcher to make an illegal movement.  This pitch stays live for the purpose of continuing action (i.e., a stolen base attempt).

The second strike should be administered following the stop of play -- not concurrently.  It is NOT imperative to call that strike immediately.  This is a penalty for not keeping a foot in the box -- not delaying.  Yes, this is lumped into the delay rule, but the delay portion deals with when the batter must be ready (20 seconds).  Once he is ready, as @jimurrayalterego points out, he technically cannot delay.  However, he can violate the second clause of the rule which is to keep one foot in the box throughout the at bat.  If done during a pitch delivery, this obviously isn't an effort to delay, it is an effort to make the pitcher fault.

So, I am going with no . . . you cannot have UK3 on this call.

[Richvee]

16 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

 

So, I am going with no . . . you cannot have UK3 on this call.

casebook 6.2.4 sit H & I says otherwise

[The Man in Blue]

5 hours ago, Richvee said:

casebook 6.2.4 sit H & I says otherwise

Neither one does.  At least, not according to the 2018 digital version I am using.  If these plays were updated and I just didn't bother to go look, let me know.

Situation H occurs with a 3-2 count.  The pitch (which remains live) is the third strike, and would be eligible for the UK3.  There is no second penalty strike on the pitch as we cannot have a 4th strike.  The case play then calls the batter's move "not intentional" so there is no ejection.  (Note: intent has nothing to do with the feet.)  If anything, this case play re-enforces that the second penalty strike is enforced following the live ball status of the first penalty strike (not concurrently).  There is no UK4 rule.

Situation I does not provide a count.  It clarifies that the first strike is called on the pitch and the second is a penalty for stepping out of the box.  I don't think a catcher can drop a penalty.  Due to the runner on third base, the case play provides confirmation that the pitch does stay live in c (the wild pitch) scenario, and that runner can steal home.  It is not saying that it should be considered a UK3.  (If applied, the penalty for stepping out also does NOT lead to a dead ball status.  That is, until you have to call time to explain it.)

 

[Richvee]

The way I read it all, the order would be reversed from the way you’re seeing it. One strike on the batter, he steps out first (penalty strike 2) THEN the pitch is delivered. (Strike 3 ball is live). 
And yes…. Situation H would be a lot more helpful if they made the count 2-1. 

[Richvee]

I would also think if they didn’t want the double strike left live, it would (should) read something like “One strike is called on the pitch, and a second strike added for stepping out of the box, the ball is dead”

or in the dead ball table. The ball is dead when…a penalty strike is called after a pitch. 

[SeeingEyeDog]

3 minutes ago, Richvee said:

I would also think if they didn’t want the double strike left live, it would (should) read something like “One strike is called on the pitch, and a second strike added for stepping out of the box, the ball is dead”

or in the dead ball table. The ball is dead when…a penalty strike is called after a pitch. 

There is also a timing element to this situation. If the batter steps out with both feet, I will grab the strike as the rule states. But, if the pitcher fails to deliver...at some point, (3 seconds? 5?), I am killing this, displaying and verbalizing the new count and putting the ball back into play.

~Dawg

[The Man in Blue]

On 1/24/2025 at 8:46 PM, Richvee said:

I would also think if they didn’t want the double strike left live, it would (should) read something like “One strike is called on the pitch, and a second strike added for stepping out of the box, the ball is dead”

or in the dead ball table. The ball is dead when…a penalty strike is called after a pitch. 

You and I both know there is a whole lot of "if they didn't want _____, it would read _____."   😋

"The double strike" is not left live.  The pitch is left live.  The pitch is strike 2.  The second penalty is not applied immediately, there is no reason to apply it immediately.  The rule is written this way so an umpire doesn't jump out and kill it while a runner is stealing, not to award the batter a correction of his MAJOR errors.  Think of it like obstruction.  We note it, it stays live, we apply it at the end.  (Is there any other offense that we leave live?)

Let's throw this wrinkle in . . . 3-1 count, R3 with 1 out.  Batter steps in with his heels on the line.  Pitcher comes set and the batter turns, stepping out with one foot.  As the pitcher begins his delivery, the batter steps out with the second foot.  The pitcher delivers the pitch, but is thrown off and tosses an eephus in.  The batter steps back in (he didn't go very far) and he hits the pitch into the gap for a double.  What do you have?  

 

On 1/24/2025 at 8:52 PM, SeeingEyeDog said:

There is also a timing element to this situation. If the batter steps out with both feet, I will grab the strike as the rule states. But, if the pitcher fails to deliver...at some point, (3 seconds? 5?), I am killing this, displaying and verbalizing the new count and putting the ball back into play.

~Dawg

I disagree that there is any timing element as far as the batter stepping out.

If the pitcher fails to deliver due to him stepping out, you are supposed to kill it with no penalty (no balk on the pitcher, no penalty on the batter).  The rule does not say he has to start the delivery and stop, just that he doesn't deliver.  You essentially grant the TIME request from the batter and reset.

[Mussgrass]

Just count strike 2 as the uncaught pitch. Strike 3 is the penalty strike. Runner(s) can advance on the live ball but the batter is out.