Scorer interaction with umpire (high school)

[thmetcalf]

I've been the scorer and statistician for my son's high school team, and as this is his senior year, I'm writing up a guide for scorers for future years. For context, our school does not have its own field, nor do most of our opponents, so our games are on permitted public fields. There's no press box or public address system or working scoreboard. Spectators often need to bring their own chairs. Our particular school about a decade old and this is only the fourth year of varsity baseball; there is not much institutional knowledge or infrastructure to support the baseball team. Hence parents act as scorers and statisticians

Here is what I'm writing about interacting with the umpire, and I'd appreciate feedback on points you might disagree with, or additional things you wished the official scorers knew.

 

Quote

The scorer should be situated such that they can hear the umpire and ask questions when necessary. Technically (10-1-3a), the Umpire-in-Chief designates the official scorer for the game, although this will almost always be the home team's scorer. In practice, the umpires usually interact with both the home and visiting team's scorers as equals.

It is acceptable to address the umpire as "Blue," although if they give you their name, you can use that. If possible, the scorer should introduce themselves to the umpire before the game begins: "Good afternoon Blue, I'm <name>, I have the book for <school>." 

Umpires usually know what the score is, but they don't keep a written record of it, and will occasionally ask the scorer, and will sometimes also ask what inning the game is. Be prepared to answer without delay.

It is always a good idea to seek clarification on a time play---"did the run score"? One can also ask clarifying questions--did the batter swing at strike 3, or was it a called strike? Hit-by-pitch or ball four? The NFHS umpires manual recognizes that thorough scorers appreciate detailed information.

Announcing substitutions is one of the umpire's listed duties, NFHS 10-2-3d, but often the coach making the substitutions will announce to the scorers. 

It is acceptable to ask the umpire what the count is. It is the responsibility of the umpire to count balls and strikes (NFHS 10-2-1), but on rare occasions, they'll ask what the scorer has for the count on the batter, so it is good to always have these facts at hand. The more organized a scorer appears, the more credibility they'll have. If your records show that strike three or ball four has been thrown, it's acceptable to ask if that was the case. But the umpire is under no obligation to discuss their count.

If your records show the third out is made in an inning and the teams don't switch sides, or if the teams begin to switch sides before three outs are made, you should speak up, e.g. "isn't that the third out"? Be prepared to recite the sequence of action as you recorded it to make your case--e.g. "#6 struck out, #8 walked, #9 doubled, #2 walked, #7 was hit-by-pitch, then #10 grounded into a double play."  Although NFHS rules don't mention it, in MLB, the only time the scorer is supposed to pro-actively provide information to the umpire is when the teams begin to switch sides before three are out.

Keep in mind, you are under no obligation to volunteer that you think the third out, or strike three, or ball four has just happened when that puts your team at a disadvantage. If asked what your records show, you should always answer truthfully, but baseball is a game of vigilance and it is the responsibility of the other team to be aware of the game situation.

Be exceedingly careful in discussing rulings on plays. If you think the rules were not applied correctly, discuss with the head coach, who then may or may not seek an explanation from the umpire. In NFHS, the instructions to the umpire do not include a recommendation to consult the rulebook in knotty situations, as there is in many youth baseball rulesets. Do not expect a chance to discuss the ruling.

 

[BigBlue4u]

2 hours ago, thmetcalf said:

It is acceptable to address the umpire as "Blue," although if they give you their name, you can use that. If possible, the scorer should introduce themselves to the umpire before the game begins: "Good afternoon Blue, I'm <name>, I have the book for <school>." 

I've got a headline for you.  It is NEVER acceptable to call an umpire "Blue."  It's either by the umpire's first name or Mr. Umpire.  Possibly the umpire's last name:  Mr. Jones, etc. I don't know where you got your information, but it is just plain WRONG!!

[Velho]

4 hours ago, thmetcalf said:

Although NFHS rules don't mention it, in MLB, the only time the scorer is supposed to pro-actively provide information to the umpire is when the teams begin to switch sides before three are out.

This explicitly includes Batting Out of Order. The official scorekeeper shouldn't say anything (good to practice how to handle this in Game Changer ahead of time - that's usually what I see scorekeepers freak out about as opposed to fair play, LOL) FYI - if/when you have announcers it is important they say the number of the batter physically coming up and not the next batter in the lineup.

4 hours ago, thmetcalf said:

Keep in mind, you are under no obligation to volunteer that you think the third out, or strike three, or ball four has just happened when that puts your team at a disadvantage. If asked what your records show, you should always answer truthfully, but baseball is a game of vigilance and it is the responsibility of the other team to be aware of the game situation.

IMO, the official scorekeeper is a neutral party and should behave as such - especially when in a scorekeeper shed. That is a designated and special location. If you want to cheer or shade anything to one side or the other, get out of the shed and go with the rest of the fans.

 

P.S. Good on you for doing this. Love it. Thank you.

[The Man in Blue]

4 hours ago, BigBlue4u said:

I've got a headline for you.  It is NEVER acceptable to call an umpire "Blue."  It's either by the umpire's first name or Mr. Umpire.  Possibly the umpire's last name:  Mr. Jones, etc. I don't know where you got your information, but it is just plain WRONG!!

I'll err on the side of "Find out what a person would like to be called."

I utterly despise hearing my name (first or last) used on the baseball field and far prefer the ubiquitous "Blue."  You don't walk into court and call the judge "Jimmy."  We are on the field to be a neutral arbiter, so one team using my name while the other does not is a pet peeve of mine.

While I appreciate their work and volunteer effort, I'm also not a fan of interacting with bookkeepers as a regular practice.  They do not have any official capacity in adjudicating the game.  Admittedly, almost every other sport requires a working relationship with the books, timers, scorers, etc.  

[Velho]

1 hour ago, The Man in Blue said:

I'm also not a fan of interacting with bookkeepers as a regular practice.  They do not have any official capacity in adjudicating the game.

To pick on this a bit... do you keep score?

[umpstu]

6 hours ago, BigBlue4u said:

I've got a headline for you.  It is NEVER acceptable to call an umpire "Blue."  It's either by the umpire's first name or Mr. Umpire.  Possibly the umpire's last name:  Mr. Jones, etc. I don't know where you got your information, but it is just plain WRONG!!

I think it's a personal preference. Been doing this for 31 years and have never had an issue with being called blue. Why do you think it's just plain wrong?

[Chartwig03]

8 hours ago, BigBlue4u said:

I've got a headline for you.  It is NEVER acceptable to call an umpire "Blue."  It's either by the umpire's first name or Mr. Umpire.  Possibly the umpire's last name:  Mr. Jones, etc. I don't know where you got your information, but it is just plain WRONG!!

BigBlue4u, [SH*#, sorry]… BigMr.Umpire4u, the vast majority of the baseball world uses blue. If it were not acceptable, I think it would be rebutted much more. I don’t like being called blue, so I tell them my name and ask them to call me that. 

[Kevin_K]

9 hours ago, Chartwig03 said:

the vast majority of the baseball world uses blue. 

James Madison warned us of the tyranny of the majority.

Just because many people do or believe something does not make it right or true. If this was the standard for all things baseball, the hands would be part of the bat, the tie would go to the runner, and it would, in fact, be possible to balk to 2nd base.

[grayhawk]

19 hours ago, BigBlue4u said:

I've got a headline for you.  It is NEVER acceptable to call an umpire "Blue."  It's either by the umpire's first name or Mr. Umpire.  Possibly the umpire's last name:  Mr. Jones, etc. I don't know where you got your information, but it is just plain WRONG!!

Meh. Never had an issue with it, and don’t feel disrespected by it, but the coaches and catchers in college tend to use my name, and I use theirs as well. Feels more professional that way. 

[grayhawk]

18 hours ago, Velho said:

This explicitly includes Batting Out of Order. The official scorekeeper shouldn't say anything

100%, and should be added to this document.  

[Richvee]

22 hours ago, thmetcalf said:

If your records show the third out is made in an inning and the teams don't switch sides, or if the teams begin to switch sides before three outs are made, you should speak up, e.g. "isn't that the third out"?

I’m going to disagree here. This should be treated exactly like batting out of order. Give info when asked. Otherwise, stay silent and impartial. 
That said, if you have two teams, two coaches, and umpires looking at each other all saying things like “that’s 2 outs, no, that’s 3..”…. Yeah, it may be time to interject . But if there’s two outs and teams are changing sides and no one on the field or dugouts are questioning it, you probably should stay silent. 
 

 

22 hours ago, thmetcalf said:

Keep in mind, you are under no obligation to volunteer that you think the third out, or strike three, or ball four has just happened when that puts your team at a disadvantage

This drives home my point. You are supposed to be impartial and not have a rooting interest. You certainly are not under any obligation to bring these facts to the umpire’s attention, and more precisely, I would say you shouldn’t unless asked. Picking and choosing when to bring up such details only when they give “your team” the advantage is improper for an official scorer. 
 

 

22 hours ago, thmetcalf said:

It is always a good idea to seek clarification on a time play---"did the run score"? One can also ask clarifying questions--did the batter swing at strike 3, or was it a called strike? Hit-by-pitch or ball four? The NFHS umpires manual recognizes that thorough scorers appreciate detailed information

A good umpire will signal these things. There should be no need to ask. 
On a time play, the umpire should either point at the plate and verbalize to indicate the run scores, or wave his hands above his head and verbally indicate no run scores. If no sign is given, it would be appropriate to ask. 
Swinging strikes or called strikes, HBP or ball four should also be signaled. A swinging strike would just be an arm motion from the umpire. (Point or hammer). A called strike should include a verbal “strike” call. A HBP would be followed by a time out call, as a HBP kills the play. Ball four would not. If you’re unclear, neither is a big deal from your perspective. Don’t hold up the game asking the umpire questions on such things.

 
“Good afternoon Sir(Ma’am). My name is _____ ,I’ll be the official scorer today. I’ll be sitting in that chair located……”    

If the umpire responds by giving you their name, use it. Otherwise - Blue, Sir, .. all fair game. 
From that point, a good umpire will come to you or signal you with substitutions, and approach you if they need your assistance  on any other matter. 

[The Man in Blue]

13 hours ago, Velho said:

To pick on this a bit... do you keep score?

 

The score is not my concern.  Ending the game is, and yes, that sometimes involves knowing the score.

If I am working a field that does not have a scoreboard, I do.  I have a homemade (and printed) sheet that I use for my game management (conferences, score, courtesy runners, etc.).  A few times per game, I will seek out the bookkeepers (I try to alternate between both, even though "home is official") to verify what I have.

If there is a scoreboard, I generally do not. 

I do not believe the bookkeeper should ever be seeking out the umpire for any game adjudication issue.  For BOO, that needs to come from the coach.  (If the bookkeeper needs clarification for statistical purposes, that can wait.)

[The Man in Blue]

I should have added to that . . . if the two books don't match, I instruct them to get together.  I do not stand there and sort it out (even if one matches me and one does not).

I once had a volleyball partner hold up a match for 30 minutes because the two books didn't match.  🙄😡

[834k3r]

21 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

I should have added to that . . . if the two books don't match, I instruct them to get together.  I do not stand there and sort it out (even if one matches me and one does not).

I once had a volleyball partner hold up a match for 30 minutes because the two books didn't match.  🙄😡

I think I've worked with that guy before (Cup Check Guy). 

On 1/4/2025 at 11:51 AM, thmetcalf said:

For context, our school does not have its own field, nor do most of our opponents, so our games are on permitted public fields. There's no press box or public address system or working scoreboard. Spectators often need to bring their own chairs.

So...like most travel ball teams? I think most sub-collegiate umpires won't find this unusual at all.

Some bullet responses to the rest:

• I don't actively track the score. On fields without scoreboards (most in my area), I'll ask the home book what the score is a couple of times (maximum--once in the 4th if the score is looking like a blowout, and once after the 6th) so I know the situation.
• I'll almost exclusively talk to the home book. There are times where I won't even know who the visitor book is. If there's a discrepancy between the home and visitor book, they have to work it out on their own time--I'm not holding up the game for it.
• I tend to be proactive on time plays--during the half-inning break, I'll go to the home book and ensure they understood what the call was.
• On games without scoreboards, I'll ask the home book the count once or twice a game to make sure we're on the same page. I'll also verify the inning.
• The HC will give me the subs, and I'll give the subs to the opposite team's book (i.e. if the HTHC is making the sub, I'll announce the sub to the visitor book.
• Generally speaking, the less I hear from a book (home or visitor) the better. I'm not adversarial or obstinate, but I expect the home book to be experienced. There are times where I've discussed with the book certain plays after an inning (I've had to explain time plays most often) as I'm getting a drink, but our interaction should be infrequent or rare.
• Several guys are correct when discussing what to call the umpire, it's the preference of the umpire(s). In a broader context, it's still correct:  a lot of the interaction between the book and the umpire crew (PU in particular) will depend upon the personal preference of the umpire(s). Your score keepers will have to be adaptable to meet the needs and preferences of the umpiring crew.

Ultimately, good for you putting this guide together--it will only make your scorekeepers better and more comfortable.

[SeeingEyeDog]

@The Man in Blue, you indicated above that you are "not a fan of interacting with bookkeepers as a regular practice"...

If you and your crew have lost the count or there is a dispute regarding the count, would you engage the home bookkeeper on that? I understand that "not being a fan" of something is not the same as "not doing" that same something.

Also, for anyone...how do you guys handle a game with a scoreboard where the operator is not displaying the correct count? I will give the count with my sonic boom bellow with the appropriate finger-age and move on. I do not stop the game to make sure the scoreboard displayed count is correct...I'd still be out there finishing my games here in January...thoughts, brothers?

~Dawg

[Richvee]

49 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

Also, for anyone...how do you guys handle a game with a scoreboard where the operator is not displaying the correct count? I will give the count with my sonic boom bellow with the appropriate finger-age

Exactly. Every pitch, maybe even twice between pitches until the scoreboard operator figures it out, or turns it off. I will not hold up the game waiting for it to be corrected, and I’ll do all I can to make sure everyone within earshot can hear me. I’ll also tell the batter and catcher  “score board is wrong, it’s 2-2.”  

[BLWizzRanger]

I am satisfy to see most of the responses were ones I was thinking about responding with.  TTTT (to tell the truth), I had a response but thought that it was too mean to post when overall, they are just trying to share knowledge with ones that maybe wont know how to keep score - and that might be what you really should focus on.  How do you mark a single, a run scored, a double play, ball caught in foul territory, 3rd out, lead off batter, etc. Its not the interaction that a scorekeeper has with an umpire that is important unless you are the announcer too and don't know when to stop the music. That's why they put in scorekeepers in press boxes away from the field so the umpires wouldn't have to hear them. lol.... As others have said in other ways, scorekeepers are like children and should be seen and not heard. 

However, I would be surprised someone with no experience would step up to keep score.  Most score keepers that have worked NFHS games, in my experience, have gotten plenty of experience when they have volunteered at the earlier ages. They are usually baseball folk.

While some parents/players might get mad thinking the scorekeeper screwed their batting average or increased their ERA, it comes down to it doesn't really matter to have totally accurate stats. Its high school. There are no salaries or NLI.  College coaches know to take high school stats with a grain of salt if they even care.  They let their eye tell them if someone can play or not.

Anyways, I commend the effort but I would change the focus.  Good Luck!

 

[Velho]

1 hour ago, Richvee said:

2 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

Also, for anyone...how do you guys handle a game with a scoreboard where the operator is not displaying the correct count? I will give the count with my sonic boom bellow with the appropriate finger-age

Exactly. Every pitch, maybe even twice between pitches until the scoreboard operator figures it out, or turns it off. I will not hold up the game waiting for it to be corrected, and I’ll do all I can to make sure everyone within earshot can hear me. I’ll also tell the batter and catcher  “score board is wrong, it’s 2-2

On top of that, I'll flash my fingers behind my back to the keepers shed. It's abnormal enough it usually gets their attention. If the inaccuracies are persistent it's good practice for the multistep* process of holding people accountable through an escalating approach starting with lightheartedness and rising from there - ending in "don't do the count at all" if necessary.

* As opposed to going nuclear as step 1 - or so I've been told.

[SeeingEyeDog]

31 minutes ago, Velho said:

On top of that, I'll flash my fingers behind my back to the keepers shed. It's abnormal enough it usually gets their attention. If the inaccuracies are persistent it's good practice for the multistep* process of holding people accountable through an escalating approach starting with lightheartedness and rising from there - ending in "don't do the count at all" if necessary.

* As opposed to going nuclear as step 1 - or so I've been told.

Yeah, I have had a few instances where I just grabbed the AD and told them to tell the folks in the box to stop displaying the count because it's disrupting the flow of the game...

~Dawg

[834k3r]

16 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

Also, for anyone...how do you guys handle a game with a scoreboard where the operator is not displaying the correct count? I will give the count with my sonic boom bellow with the appropriate finger-age and move on. I do not stop the game to make sure the scoreboard displayed count is correct...

Had this situation pop up during last year's 3A district playoffs, and I gave the count for three or four straight pitches (I normally only say the count after 3 pitches, and then again with a full count). Scoreboard operator figured it out; no intervention necessary.

[Coach Carl]

I think the scorekeeper who is the official book must be prepared to be completely impartial.  Everyone knows you are with the home team but you should act as if you are not.  If the coach wants to consult a scorebook to check on something that would gain a competitive advantage (i.e. on a BOO situation) he should keep one in the dugout for those purposes.  As the official book, I'd position myself away form both dugouts and shoo any players or coaches away who are fishing for information other than the score and inning (and only because that is not available on a scoreboard at your games).

As a scorekeeper, I would not ask the umpire ANY questions to help you with your duties, unless it involves whether or not a run scored or an out was made.  For the purposes of keeping stats, keep up with the game as best you can and live with the result.  As an example, clarifying a swinging strike three vs. a called strike three would not be a question you should ask (It should be obvious anyway:  did he swing or not?  if it was a half-swing, did the defense appeal? -- those two pieces of info should be enough).  Don't bother the umpire on details whose only purpose is to help compile stats.  

[The Man in Blue]

On 1/6/2025 at 7:24 PM, SeeingEyeDog said:

@The Man in Blue, you indicated above that you are "not a fan of interacting with bookkeepers as a regular practice"...

If you and your crew have lost the count or there is a dispute regarding the count, would you engage the home bookkeeper on that? I understand that "not being a fan" of something is not the same as "not doing" that same something.

Also, for anyone...how do you guys handle a game with a scoreboard where the operator is not displaying the correct count? I will give the count with my sonic boom bellow with the appropriate finger-age and move on. I do not stop the game to make sure the scoreboard displayed count is correct...I'd still be out there finishing my games here in January...thoughts, brothers?

~Dawg

 

Indeed.  I didn't say "won't ever, under no circumstance."  Obviously, I am going to my partner (or crew) first and foremost*.  If we still can't get it, I'm reading the room.  If both coaches are hollering the same thing, we are going with that (arbiter!).  If they can't agree, I guess we are headed to the book.  Since there is "an official book" then I really don't care what the other one says or if they agree.

Like @Richvee said, give the count constantly until they get it fixed.  It still amazes the number of times that we can give the count EVERY PITCH for three or four straight pitches, and they still only pay attention to the scoreboard.

Also like you, @SeeingEyeDog, there has been more than one time I have requested the scoreboard operator be replaced or just stop putting the count up.  Always tournaments where they don't have scoreboard operators, so the teams stick the little kids on it.

 

*Edit: Maybe a slight fib.  First I am hoping the batter just hits the next pitch and we don't have to mess with all this!

[Richvee]

27 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

*Edit: Maybe a slight fib.  First I am hoping the batter just hits the next pitch and we don't have to mess with all this!

Been there more than I care to admit 😎

[BigBlue4u]

On 1/5/2025 at 10:09 AM, grayhawk said:

Meh. Never had an issue with it, and don’t feel disrespected by it, but the coaches and catchers in college tend to use my name, and I use theirs as well. Feels more professional that way. 

10-4 grayhawk.  It IS more professional that way.

[834k3r]

On 1/8/2025 at 8:03 PM, Richvee said:

Been there more than I care to admit 😎

Haven't we all?