Time called - runner at wrong base when play goes live

[beerguy55]

Saw a video of this - I think MiLB.

 

R1/R2, 1 out.

Time is called for a pitching change.

R2 goes to talk to the third base coach....and then stays at third base.  

Pitcher finishes warmup, ball is made live.  Nobody notices R2 is now on R3.

First pitch, fly ball to shallow outfield caught.  No runners advance. 

Now defense notices there's a runner mysteriously on third base and coach talks to ump.

 

I'm assuming in any ruleset there really is no remediation - it's now R1/R3 with two out, and umps are thankful it wasn't an infield single?

Do over seems the worst option.  And putting R3 back to second base only really works if you get lucky and he's still on third base after the play - doesn't really apply if batter hit a sac fly. Especially problematic if R3 is thrown out at home on said sac fly.

 

Umps need to make sure players are at their proper bases before making ball live, but it's a mistake that I can't see being able to remedy.  Defense should be noticing something like this even if it's not "their job".

 

What if we get lucky and the first pitch isn't swung at - do you return R2?

[grayhawk]

Since this play isn't otherwise covered in the rules, seems to me like an 8.01(c) situation. I think we give the offense 2 options. We can:

1. Eject R2 for cheating
2. Put R2 back on second

I suspect they would choose option 2.

[flyingron]

I believe the outcome was to return the runner to second (doubtful it was intentional).   Of course, the commentators spent then next 30 minutes making up stuff about what might have happened.

[beerguy55]

28 minutes ago, flyingron said:

I believe the outcome was to return the runner to second (doubtful it was intentional).   Of course, the commentators spent then next 30 minutes making up stuff about what might have happened.

Like I said, I think they got lucky.    Very easy to remediate as is.   If R3 scores on a sac fly or an infield single then it gets really ugly.  Or gets thrown out on a sac fly.

I agree, it likely was just a brain cramp and he just went to the base next to him.

[BigBlue4u]

6 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

Like I said, I think they got lucky.    Very easy to remediate as is.   If R3 scores on a sac fly or an infield single then it gets really ugly.  Or gets thrown out on a sac fly.

I agree, it likely was just a brain cramp and he just went to the base next to him.

Sorry, I'm giving the team a lot more credit than a brain fart or unintentionally forgetting which base the runner started from.  This is my solution:  Call R2 out.  By just sending R2 back to second, the offensive team reaction could be:  "We didn't get away with it this time." Calling out R2 is the way to go.  And, the reason for calling out R2?  Make up anything reasonable.  One could start with:  R2 is out for un-sportsmanlike conduct.  Failure to return to the proper base. (8.01c)  

[jimurrayalterego]

53 minutes ago, BigBlue4u said:

Sorry, I'm giving the team a lot more credit than a brain fart or unintentionally forgetting which base the runner started from.  This is my solution:  Call R2 out.  By just sending R2 back to second, the offensive team reaction could be:  "We didn't get away with it this time." Calling out R2 is the way to go.  And, the reason for calling out R2?  Make up anything reasonable.  One could start with:  R2 is out for un-sportsmanlike conduct.  Failure to return to the proper base. (8.01c)  

Didn't the defense actually throw to 2B. R2 should have been out for failing to retouch his base?

[grayhawk]

4 hours ago, BigBlue4u said:

R2 is out for un-sportsmanlike conduct.

I can't think of a single instance where unsportsmanlike conduct results in an out. It's only ever either a warning and/or and ejection.

[noumpere]

Not the same play (especially on the potential of getting an out), but this FED 2003 Interp might help:

 

SITUATION 3: During a time-out, with runners on first and second bases, R2 switches places with R1 because he is faster and plans on stealing third base when the game resumes. RULING: When detected, the umpire will award two outs to the defense, warn the coach and eject R2 and R1. One out is assessed for passing a runner and another out is for running the bases in reverse order. This infraction may be corrected during a dead ball when detected by the umpire, defensive team or offensive team. (3-3-1g, 8-4-2m, n)

[beerguy55]

1 hour ago, noumpere said:

Not the same play (especially on the potential of getting an out), but this FED 2003 Interp might help:

 

SITUATION 3: During a time-out, with runners on first and second bases, R2 switches places with R1 because he is faster and plans on stealing third base when the game resumes. RULING: When detected, the umpire will award two outs to the defense, warn the coach and eject R2 and R1. One out is assessed for passing a runner and another out is for running the bases in reverse order. This infraction may be corrected during a dead ball when detected by the umpire, defensive team or offensive team. (3-3-1g, 8-4-2m, n)

I can see how this supports ejecting R2.  But there's no "out" for being at the next base when the ball is made live again, that I know of.

 

The other part of this is interesting - it says it may be corrected during a dead ball.  But doesn't say when it's too late.  When the ball is made live?  After the next pitch?  After the at bat is completed?  Anytime before either runner scores or is put out?

 

13 hours ago, jimurrayalterego said:

Didn't the defense actually throw to 2B. R2 should have been out for failing to retouch his base?

Starting at the wrong base isn't one of the appealable plays.    He touched second.  He went to third.  He touched third.   And if we're applying the "next play" standard for appeals it would be too late. 

[beerguy55]

14 hours ago, BigBlue4u said:

By just sending R2 back to second, the offensive team reaction could be:  "We didn't get away with it this time."

This is why you eject people.

[Richvee]

1 hour ago, noumpere said:

When detected, the umpire will award two outs to the defense, warn the coach and eject R2 and R1

 

1 hour ago, noumpere said:

This infraction may be corrected during a dead ball when detected by the umpire, defensive team or offensive team.

So which one is it? 

[ArchAngel72]

Is there not some verbiage about no runner being able to advance during a dead ball unless instructed to by a umpire and or a homerun.  Something along those lines in the rulebook.  Im not going to look it up in mine as its LL and does not pertain to miLB  or other.   But anyway if there is anything in that type of verbiage then one would think based on that 1.Out and 2.ejection is easily acceptable.

my 2 cents anyway..

I really gotta stop looking at this forum. LMAO

[BigBlue4u]

8 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

I can see how this supports ejecting R2.  But there's no "out" for being at the next base when the ball is made live again, that I know of.

 

The other part of this is interesting - it says it may be corrected during a dead ball.  But doesn't say when it's too late.  When the ball is made live?  After the next pitch?  After the at bat is completed?  Anytime before either runner scores or is put out?

 

Starting at the wrong base isn't one of the appealable plays.    He touched second.  He went to third.  He touched third.   And if we're applying the "next play" standard for appeals it would be too late. 

That's why we have 8.01c in baseball and 10-2-3-g in high school.

[jimurrayalterego]

8 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

 

 

Starting at the wrong base isn't one of the appealable plays.    He touched second.  He went to third.  He touched third.   And if we're applying the "next play" standard for appeals it would be too late. 

The TOP base was 2B. I think the ball came in to a middle infielder. I don't remember if he touched 2B or it was touched during the dead ball but if 2B was touched when the ball came in we have an appeal for an out.

[beerguy55]

14 hours ago, jimurrayalterego said:

The TOP base was 2B. I think the ball came in to a middle infielder. I don't remember if he touched 2B or it was touched during the dead ball but if 2B was touched when the ball came in we have an appeal for an out.

I can buy this for the simple reason that it was a caught fly ball, saying he technically left second base early.  But it gets dicey because he actually was on third at time of pitch - and this means his retouch requirement, for the caught fly ball, is third base.  (not to mention it doesn't work if the ball isn't caught) We don't have a designation for "where he should have been TOP".

It is the umpire's job to make sure runners are at (or at least reasonably close to) their origin base when the ball is made live - to get rid of the 89 foot lead off attempt.  It is otherwise not a violation, per se.  The defense has a responsibility here too, to at least be aware, much like MYTAB - the difference of course is one requires the umps to be proactive, the other reactive.   And, much like MYTAB and appeals, there has to be some delineation point when it's too late to correct the error.

Putting the runner back here only works because there was one pitch thrown, and nobody advanced.  But the batter did complete his time at bat, and if it was me, and I'm writing a new set of rules, I'd say that makes it too late.  IMO, I'd even go further and say it needs to be corrected before the next pitch or play....just like an appeal.  Otherwise you have stupid scenarios where R1 is thrown out stealing second three pitches before any realizes second base should have been occupied.  Or R3 scoring on a wild pitch three pitches before anyone realizes he shouldn't have been on third.   

You want to eject R3 and the coach the next inning after realizing what they did, go for it. But I think the matter of correcting the baserunner position needs to have a consistent line.  And the only line that always works the same is the same one for appeals.