+POS is back and Re-launching!

[ArchAngel72]

47 minutes ago, dumbdumb said:

uniform total weight=1 ounce

 

Does this come in black with blue or grey panels?

[Replacematt]

On 11/26/2024 at 3:58 PM, MadMax said:

Each of these is well past $200 each. So where does that $200+ for a 25 year old, China-produced, poorly-supported, ill-fitted, bulky, cumbersome loaf of a chest protector go? What's that money _for_??! 

It's profit.

Demand dictates price, and if the majority of the market does not view these items as differentiated products, which means that whatever value the market sets on it, the price will reflect. It's a small minority that views these as differentiated, with corresponding 

There's some oversimplification here, and would require a greater explanation of the interplay between the demand curve and the marginal revenue curve, but this is why Wilson benefits from this--because the profit-maximizing quantity of units produced (for the industry as a whole) is where marginal cost meets marginal revenue, and Wilson's marginal cost is (presumably) much less than its competitors, it enjoys that much more profit because the unit quantity on the demand curve is inherently skewed to the left due to the competition's larger marginal cost. If the market was significantly larger, Wilson could drop its prices to increase share, reducing profits in the short-term with the goal of increasing them long-term. The reason they won't is that will uncover (at least) two markets out of the current one, one that will remain undifferentiated, and one that will differentiate (size unknown.) 

With that, and the large amount of market share that Wilson has, it would likely be impossible for them to increase their unit sales enough with a reduction in price to offset the marginal profit they would lose with lower prices. If they only had, say, 5% of CP sales, it would be well worth it. So it's the best solution to sit pat, enjoy the increased marginal profit they get because their competitors produce a superior product and that the market really doesn't care that they do.

If anything, this highlights where Wilson's patent is a competitive advantage--other companies were forced to do something different to exist in this industry, and if they had the legal ability to simply do what Wilson does, they would have, and the cost of a CP would be much lower due to the lower average industry marginal cost. (We'd have to get into a discussion on elasticity and such to fully explain this.)
 

And I'll conclude with this, because it's very easy to get the wrong idea: Production cost does not directly affect market price. It is a recursive interplay between the demand quantity and the price (demand curve,) the marginal cost determining the profit-maximizing marginal revenue (marginal revenue curve,) and that price going back to its place on the demand curve. It all starts with how much the market is willing to pay and for what.

[DerekGDS]

20 minutes ago, Replacematt said:

Demand dictates price, and if the majority of the market does not view these items as differentiated products, which means that whatever value the market sets on it, the price will reflect. 

Sure, it’s true that demand dictates price, but Wilson’s pricing isn’t purely market-driven. They’ve leveraged MLB licensing to create artificial product differentiation. The MLB logo doesn’t just sell the product—it sells the idea that it’s what the pros use, which commands premium pricing. This isn’t about a purely undifferentiated market... it’s about perception. The MLB logo creates demand that allows Wilson to keep prices high, even if their products aren’t fundamentally different or, as @MadMax argues, potentially worse. It’s a psychological advantage that skews consumer perception and props up their pricing.

25 minutes ago, Replacematt said:

Wilson's marginal cost is (presumably) much less than its competitors, it enjoys that much more profit because the unit quantity on the demand curve is inherently skewed to the left due to the competition's larger marginal cost.

It’s more than just efficiency. Sure, Wilson benefits from scale, but a big chunk of their cost advantage comes from using cheaper materials. As MadMax pointed out, if we’re ranking materials on a $-$$$$ scale, a lot of Wilson’s raw inputs sit closer to $ or $$ with the exception of the Fidlock. That lets them produce cheaper, but it doesn’t mean they’re producing better. Their lower costs aren’t just about smart production, it’s a tradeoff that prioritizes margin over quality.

30 minutes ago, Replacematt said:

If the market was significantly larger, Wilson could drop its prices to increase share, reducing profits in the short-term with the goal of increasing them long-term

I think that’d be a risky move for them. Wilson’s premium pricing strategy rests entirely on branding and licensing, not on product quality. Lowering prices would shift focus from the MLB association to direct quality comparisons, where a lot of competitors have a clear edge. Dropping their prices would also erode the perceived value of their brand. I just don’t see Wilson doing this—it’d weaken their positioning, and the long-term consequence wouldn’t be increased profits it’d be a diluted brand.

35 minutes ago, Replacematt said:

o it's the best solution to sit pat, enjoy the increased marginal profit they get because their competitors produce a superior product and that the market really doesn't care that they do.

Markets don’t stay static, and I wouldn’t assume this one will. Sure, Wilson’s branding and MLB association are huge drivers of demand, and right now, it might seem like the market doesn’t care much about quality. But that could change quickly, especially if competitors find better ways to communicate their advantages. I’m not saying consumers will necessarily prioritize quality over branding in this case, but the possibility is there. The idea that “the market doesn’t care” might hold for now, but it overlooks the potential for disruption if competitors play their cards right.

 

My too many cents. 

[grayhawk]

20 minutes ago, DerekGDS said:

Markets don’t stay static, and I wouldn’t assume this one will. Sure, Wilson’s branding and MLB association are huge drivers of demand, and right now, it might seem like the market doesn’t care much about quality. But that could change quickly, especially if competitors find better ways to communicate their advantages.

I think Force 3 did this to some extent with the addition of Kevlar, giving the impression that they produced a much lower profile CP with superior energy dissipation. The problem was that the actual results on the field didn't prove that out, and users started moving towards other products.

I still feel the All Star System 7 is the most protective CP ever developed for the mass market, though it's quite bulky.  It's advantages were purely on design and not on technology. I think we're going  to have to wait for the "MadMax" to be introduced for a true game changing CP that shows a clear advantage over the competition.

[DerekGDS]

6 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

All Star

I’d argue that overall, All-Star develops some of the best products out there and offers one of the strongest value-for-cost ratios for umpires.

[SeeingEyeDog]

34 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

I think we're going to have to wait for the "MadMax" to be introduced for a true game changing CP that shows a clear advantage over the competition.

...featuring new and improved THUNDERDOME plating!

~Dawg

[MadMax]

On 11/26/2024 at 6:30 PM, grayhawk said:

@MadMax, describe your perfect CP.

 

On 11/26/2024 at 10:17 PM, umpstu said:

Yeah, @MadMax. What is your perfect cp?

Heh. 

I wear the closest thing to perfect right now – the Schutt-Adams MaXV w/ an UmpLife RayFlex harness. I happened to get mine in its inaugural batch in 2015 (hence why it's called the XV), so it has the real-deal D3O in it. Tough as nails, well-ventilated, resilient, fits me (near) perfectly, and completely hydrophobic – it sheds water instantly, and doesn't hold it, weighing me down. The first batch(es) of XVs had a horrible harness, since rectified, and the breastplate is a tad bit too broad for my liking, but all in all, this has been irreplaceable in my gear arsenal. 

Sure, I gave the Cobalt a serious consideration, and there are some very admirable qualities to it, but I feel no less protected in my XV. The only other CP on the market that I get a twinge of envy for is the Mizuno, but that's that foreign, exotic allure – the swag factor – more than anything else. 

So, my perfect, ideal CP would be based around a ventilated TPU-EVA laminate foam jacket that is segmented so as to conform to your body. Then, the carapace plates are not only ventilated, but also faceted... or, more akin to dragon scales. I know, I know, the weight starts to add up, but I'm describing perfection. I keep looking at Motocross body armor: 

See how ventilated these are? Why do our baseball CPs have to be solid plates??! When has a baseball changed its circumference from 9 inches? @Majordave used to tease about designing UmpTrooper armor (ie. just like a Star Wars stormtrooper)... with the advance of materials and technology, we can step even closer to something as comprehensive as that. 

I fully acknowledge that there will never be a "perfect CP", or any piece of protective equipment for that matter, for everyone. Each person's requirements, dimensions, and choices are different. Why I carry around so much ire and contempt for Wilson is due to how they produce their products, how they price them, and how they treat us. Do they treat us as A) users? B) customers? or simply C) purchasers? 
Given Wilson's history with the last 25 years, in regards to protective gear for umpires, I have to answer C. To be fair, they're not alone; in fact, it's typically indicative and symptomatic of international corporations, especially one operating as an asset of a 🤬 private-equity group. 

To your ( @Replacematt ) exact point... it's profit. The margins beyond costs is profit. But that's the point of my argument – those profits are distributed to private equity portfolios and shareholder dividends, and not reinvested into R&D, or user/customer cultivation (because they see us as mere purchasers). It cannot – can not – be that developing and employing better materials is cost prohibitive. When Wilson produces and prices a Wilson Platinum at $215, and Diamond rolls out a clone of it – with user-benefiting improvements – and prices it at $99, it begs the question... where does the $116 go??!!

So yes, I'm pleased to see +POS (seemingly) rise from the dead. It was once a dynamic, innovative producer in our Officiating Gear space. I'll cheer for them, and openly look forward to reviewing and giving consideration to any new gear that they'll bring to market in the coming months / year. I say the same for Douglas (even though I have no reason to purchase their gear), and All-Star (because unlike Wilson, they have demonstrated they are much more in the A&B camp than C), and Honig's, and Great Call, and Champion, and Champro... and last, but certainly not least, Gerry Davis. I fervently believe that, based on my dealings with @DerekGDS, my next, and likely last, core gear items will have the GD plate logo on them 😁. 

[concertman1971]

7 hours ago, MadMax said:

I fully acknowledge that there will never be a "perfect CP", or any piece of protective equipment for that matter, for everyone. 

Stay tuned..................................................................................................................

[AL-Ump]

Back to the original topic - I received my package from POS+ today.  At least the shipping is working well!

One step at a time!

[MadMax]

20 hours ago, AL-Ump said:

At least the shipping is working well!

That’s a huuuuuuuge win. 🏆 

Really, the product was never the problem; it was the delivery. 📦 

[ATXBlue]

On 11/30/2024 at 1:08 PM, AL-Ump said:

Back to the original topic - I received my package from POS+ today.  At least the shipping is working well!

One step at a time!

Pics or it didn’t happen

[BLWizzRanger]

That’s a huuuuuuuge win.  
Really, the product was never the problem; it was the delivery.  

Thats what she said....

Sorry. Turkey hangover....

Sent from my SM-F721U1 using Tapatalk

[AL-Ump]

19 hours ago, ATXBlue said:

Pics or it didn’t happen

Ummmm - It's 3 indicators and a diddy bag.  You really want pictures?

They were cheap and the style I use.  🤷‍♂️

[ATXBlue]

3 hours ago, AL-Ump said:

Ummmm - It's 3 indicators and a diddy bag.  You really want pictures?

They were cheap and the style I use.  🤷‍♂️

Okay okay I’ll get my vice somewhere else…. For the indicators though, are they oversized like the ones on UA? If not I’ve been looking forever for those. 

[AL-Ump]

Yes they are.  I didn't think they would be but yes.  White rotating wheel.

[FranklinT]

On 11/27/2024 at 9:11 PM, DerekGDS said:

I think that’d be a risky move for them. Wilson’s premium pricing strategy rests entirely on branding and licensing, not on product quality. Lowering prices would shift focus from the MLB association to direct quality comparisons, where a lot of competitors have a clear edge. Dropping their prices would also erode the perceived value of their brand. I just don’t see Wilson doing this—it’d weaken their positioning, and the long-term consequence wouldn’t be increased profits it’d be a diluted brand.

 

It's been interesting seeing the significant sales/discounts of the Wilson Gold memory foam and "regular" padding chest protectors in the last few months from a few retailers.  Seems like they might be having trouble commanding the MSRPs.

On 11/27/2024 at 9:46 PM, DerekGDS said:

I’d argue that overall, All-Star develops some of the best products out there and offers one of the strongest value-for-cost ratios for umpires.

+1 always loved All Star masks (never tried a CP or leg guards)

[catsbackr]

On 11/18/2024 at 3:08 PM, BLWizzRanger said:

POS means something else in today's world... just saying.... I mean, you won't get a shipbuilder to name a ship 'Titanic' again...

LOL, but I bet you have plenty of stuff that says "Smitty" on it...😂

[The Man in Blue]

On 11/27/2024 at 3:32 PM, ArchAngel72 said:

 

Does this come in black with blue or grey panels?

Mark VII, stealth mode . . . 

[The Man in Blue]

And for those who can't handle black on a hot day . . . 🙄

(Mark XXX or Mark 50?)

[BT_Blue]

Been a bit since I was last on here. But over the moon to see +POS back in the game. AND OF COURSE the COBRA is actually something that can be had... 3 years after I step off the field!