+POS is back and Re-launching!

[wolfe_man]

Just got an email, so went to their site out of curiosity.  They're doing same day shipping now it says.

[umpstu]

5 minutes ago, wolfe_man said:

Just got an email, so went to their site out of curiosity.  They're doing same day shipping now it says.

Can they be trusted?

[wolfe_man]

51 minutes ago, umpstu said:

Can they be trusted?

That is the million dollar question!

It's only money, right? 😁

TBH, I would have come out with a new name after all the issues they had in the past, but, he's proud of his name and it's history so I can understand why he kept the +POS branding.

[BLWizzRanger]

POS means something else in today's world... just saying.... I mean, you won't get a shipbuilder to name a ship 'Titanic' again...

[SeeingEyeDog]

Any idea if there's any innovation going there? I just looked through their offerings and it all looks very 1990's all up in there...I didn't know you could spend $15 on a chest protector...

~Dawg

[boyinr]

5 hours ago, umpstu said:

Can they be trusted?

I’ll let someone else go first on this.  I remember when their stuff was the gear to own.  
 

I admire his dedication to keeping the family business going and I wish him the best. 

[FootDocUmp]

I ordered a mask, and had a tracking number a few minutes later, and it shows that UPS has it. I also just emailed with a question about my order and got an answer right away. 

[MadMax]

9 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

Any idea if there's any innovation going there?

There might be, but in fairness, the core items – the ZRO-G mask, the Cobra CP, and the shinguards, specifically – are all more-than-adequate for most amateur umpires. And the prices! Wow, what a savings! 

Sure, the ZRO-G mask is hollow-tube steel, and not any of the -ums, but it looks just like a Nike "Icon", without the hefty price tag. The pads are super-springy AirCell open-cell-foam pads, among the best of the "stock standard" pads on the market. 

Sure, the shinguards are basic, but really, do new umpires really need premium shin guards? Heck, they even use SR buckles instead of cheap steel D-rings and clips! 

Then, that brings us to the Cobra. I'll expound more on the details later, but the Cobra was poised to upend the protective gear market when +POS suspended operations. It was one of the first CPs to use HDPE instead of ABS, its layout was uniquely and innovatively effective, and it was employing 5-layer laminate foam... while the ol' yellow-W slug was still stuck on sofa cushion foam!

... annnnnnnddddd charging $200 for it!

[grayhawk]

9 hours ago, MadMax said:

Sure, the ZRO-G mask is hollow-tube steel, and not any of the -ums, but it looks just like a Nike "Icon", without the hefty price tag. The pads are super-springy AirCell open-cell-foam pads, among the best of the "stock standard" pads on the market. 

I had two ZRO-G masks that served me well, though I used (and still do to this day) the Wilson memory foam pads in them. I took hard shots to each of them, which bent them so I tossed the masks. But my head felt no ill effects so they did their job.

[FootDocUmp]

10 hours ago, MadMax said:

There might be, but in fairness, the core items – the ZRO-G mask, the Cobra CP, and the shinguards, specifically – are all more-than-adequate for most amateur umpires. And the prices! Wow, what a savings! 

Sure, the ZRO-G mask is hollow-tube steel, and not any of the -ums, but it looks just like a Nike "Icon", without the hefty price tag. The pads are super-springy AirCell open-cell-foam pads, among the best of the "stock standard" pads on the market. 

Sure, the shinguards are basic, but really, do new umpires really need premium shin guards? Heck, they even use SR buckles instead of cheap steel D-rings and clips! 

Then, that brings us to the Cobra. I'll expound more on the details later, but the Cobra was poised to upend the protective gear market when +POS suspended operations. It was one of the first CPs to use HDPE instead of ABS, its layout was uniquely and innovatively effective, and it was employing 5-layer laminate foam... while the ol' yellow-W slug was still stuck on sofa cushion foam!

... annnnnnnddddd charging $200 for it!

What is HDPE, and what does the 5-Layer laminate do?

[DerekGDS]

1 hour ago, FootDocUmp said:

What is HDPE, and what does the 5-Layer laminate do?

HDPE is high-density polyethylene. The big thing is its ability to disperse impact energy better than ABS. It also weighs less and is more flexible than ABS.

Laminate foams are more common now, but in the most general sense, they are a combination of foams with different properties to achieve the desired protection while typically aiming for a lower profile. Most protective gear at some point was some form of medium-high density open cell foam and for some brands it still is.

[FootDocUmp]

On 11/18/2024 at 8:08 PM, FootDocUmp said:

I ordered a mask, and had a tracking number a few minutes later, and it shows that UPS has it. I also just emailed with a question about my order and got an answer right away. 

Got the mask today.  It wasn't supposed to be here until tomorrow but just got delivered.

[AL-Ump]

Are their shin guards any good?

I mean 20 bucks.....  How bad can it be?

[FootDocUmp]

3 hours ago, AL-Ump said:

Are their shin guards any good?

I mean 20 bucks.....  How bad can it be?

I got a pair with my mask.  They were good.  But I just checked and they show sold out.  I really like the Zero-G Mask.

[grayhawk]

22 hours ago, FootDocUmp said:

I got a pair with my mask.  They were good.  But I just checked and they show sold out.  I really like the Zero-G Mask.

To quote Mike Tyson, "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth."

I hope they're good, but report back after you take a shot. 🎯

[umpstu]

Wonder if they'll only be in business until they sell all of their remaining inventory.

[FootDocUmp]

On 11/23/2024 at 11:38 PM, umpstu said:

Wonder if they'll only be in business until they sell all of their remaining inventory.

No, I talked to them and they have a new and updated line of equipment coming in for the 2026 season.  Possibly even getting it in for the late summer or fall of 2025.

[MadMax]

On 11/19/2024 at 12:14 PM, FootDocUmp said:

What is HDPE?

My esteemed colleague @DerekGDS answered that, dead-on ta boot. ABS – or, Acrylonitrile Butadiene Styrene – is another thermoplastic copolymer extensively used by human industry. Relevant to our discussion here, both have been used for sporting goods gear for quite some time, often being each other's alternatives. ABS "won out" in the production of football and baseball helmets because of its ease of production, and low cost on overall systemic investment. In other words, when you're doing a butt-load (or, s#!t-ton, as one of my favorite colleagues has famously said) of similar products, it makes sense to use ABS for everything... that whole "economy of scale". 

So, thousands upon thousands of baseball helmets... and football helmets... and football shoulder pad sets... and catchers' shinguard sets... 

... and umpire chest protectors ... all done in ABS. Why? Because it's cheap. 

One of the characteristics that HDPE has over ABS is that is denser... so to accomplish the same shape, the material can be thinner. HDPE can also hold a cast shape more effectively. So, as it applies to umpire chest protectors, you'll notice that the All-Star Cobalt CP plates are more shapely, better defined, and look more like MX / BX (cycling) body armor, where body-conforming shapes, and "low profile" (ie. no bulk) is heavily desired. In contrast, you'll see how ambiguous and generic the plate shapes are on the Wilson Gold, the Wilson Platinum, the Wilson Charcoal, the Douglas, the Diamond Pro, etc. All ABS -cast units. This unwieldy bulkiness is further compounded by the packaging and shipping practices of the manufacturers, the vendors, and ultimately, the users – when trained, ABS will begin to take on the shape of stability. 

If a Wilson Platinum is packaged and shipped to be as flat as possible so as to fit as many CP units into a container as possible, and then piled on a stockroom shelf under several other units, and then sold to a user who just stashes it – flat – in the bottom of their gear bag under the weight of the rest of their gear... how do you think the CP is going to look??!

I'm not saying that umpire gear has to be more costly, and use premium, expensive materials. But could we at least ask the questions as to why a manufacturer uses a particular material or technology instead of another? When you put all the factors on the board, the resulting price of a unit such as the All-Star Cobalt is somewhat justified; in contrast, the resulting price of a Wilson Gold sure ain't. 

... And this is why I hold them in such contempt. 

Cuz when you consider the +POS Cobra, you see that Dan Parsons included HDPE, a newly designed harness, and 5-layer laminate foam, and trotted that thing out there at $99! ... Ninety-nine dollars!! And then there's the Wilson Gold – the supposed standard by which all other CPs are judged – and it's using ABS (cheaper), a pathetic harness (since upgraded, but 15 years too late), and 1" thick homogenous sofa cushion foam (again, cheap!!!!), and Wilson is charging... $200??!?!?!? WTF???!! 

On 11/19/2024 at 12:14 PM, FootDocUmp said:

and what does the 5-Layer laminate do?

CPs are a demonstration of functional physics, with an infusion of chemistry and materials science... 

... and a dash of (manipulative) psychology. 

Without going into one of my famous diatribes, any laminate foam is going to perform better than a homogenous foam. Wilson and Douglas (as the best-known examples) employ homogenous, open-cell foam (used for upholstery, AKA "sofa cushion" foam) within a 3-layer construct. I say 3-layer, because to be technical, you must count the encasing material. Wilson totally cheaps out and uses cheap, crude nylon of the same variety used in Coleman tent floors and ditty bags. What this homogenous foam is depending on is volume. This is why it is 1" thick – the impact energy assails the plate, which in turn compresses the entirety of the plate against a broad region of the pad. Drop a 10 lb bowling-ball-sized sphere upon a 1" foam pad – the pad likely bottoms out at the point of impact. However, drop that same bowling ball upon that same foam pad with a 1/4" thick piece of plywood atop it; then, the load is distributed across the breadth of the plywood, and the foam likely doesn't flatten (entirely). 

At this point, we have to consider the following characteristics: 1) the weight of the plywood at 1/4"; can we go thinner? 2) the height (loft, thickness, volume) of the foam; can we go thinner? 3) the trait of open-cell foam to absorb and hold moisture (water) and heat; can we find something else? Open cell foam is rather nice and cushy as a material-of-body-contact, but it is pathetic at absorbing energy unless it has significant thickness. Closed cell foam is superb at energy absorption, and at refraining or eschewing moisture (water), because the cells are not water permeable, and the foam itself can be formulated to be hydrophobic. However, closed cell foam doesn't do that well at filling space, especially the space between a plastic plate and the wearer's body. Thus, when an impact assails a plate, it propels the plate and the closed cell foam back, across that empty space until the foam contacts the body, and then begins to compress. This is the (painful) result of an improperly fitted CP ( @Tksjewelry and I have discussed this at length, since she is an advocate for female umpires and their gear and attire challenges). 

So, the best thing to have is a combination – or, laminate – of open-cell foam's cushy loft and closed-cell foam's energy absorption. Once you set upon this method, you can begin to substitute in different varieties of closed-cell, thermoplastic foams, and benefit from their formulaic traits and characteristics. For example, certain varieties of TPU-EVA foam (TPU: thermoplastic polyurethane; EVA: ethylene-vinyl acetate, a particular polymer that is produced as a thermoplastic) are exceptionally hydrophobic, and their "crush resilience" can be formulaically controlled. Zorbium (Team Wendy's), Phylon (Nike), Fresh Foam (New Balance), Unobtamium (Oakley)... these are all trademarked examples. Once you settle on a closed-cell foam, then you can look at how to alter the open-cell foam; instead of using upholstery foam, why not consider egg-carton foam (All-Star does this), or lattice foam (Schutt-Adams did this) instead? 

Then, instead of using crude nylon, why not use a technical fabric, microfiber, or mesh? 

The lofty price tags on the All-Star Cobalt, the Douglas PDV, and the Force3 UnEqual are... I won't say "justified" outright, but I'll say "understandable"... when you consider: 

• All-Star Cobalt: Cutting edge, modern design, laminate foam (technical microfiber // TPU-EVA foam // egg-carton open cell foam // technical mesh; arranged in pods), HDPE plating, additional armored extension. 
• Douglas PDV: Made in the USA. Top quality craftsmanship and product support. 
• Force3 UnEqual: Neoprene casing, Kevlar-backed plate cells (segments); the Kevlar is there as the best strength-to-weight ratio for energy absorption. 

Each of these is well past $200 each. So where does that $200+ for a 25 year old, China-produced, poorly-supported, ill-fitted, bulky, cumbersome loaf of a chest protector go? What's that money _for_??! 

[grayhawk]

@MadMax, describe your perfect CP.

[SeeingEyeDog]

6 hours ago, MadMax said:

Each of these is well past $200 each. So where does that $200+ for a 25 year old, China-produced, poorly-supported, ill-fitted, bulky, cumbersome loaf of a chest protector go? What's that money _for_??! 

I wonder if and how the proposed tariffs will affect the umpire equipment market and by extension, the umpire equipment re-sale market...could be great news for Douglas...

~Dawg

[umpstu]

3 hours ago, grayhawk said:

@MadMax, describe your perfect CP.

Yeah, @MadMax. What is your perfect cp?

[DerekGDS]

11 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

I wonder if and how the proposed tariffs will affect the umpire equipment market and by extension, the umpire equipment re-sale market...could be great news for Douglas...

 

Protective equipment currently enters the US duty-free. A proposed 10% blanket tariff on Chinese imports would apply to gear from China, but most protective equipment manufacturing (for umpires) occurs outside China, primarily in Vietnam, Thailand, and Taiwan.

[ArchAngel72]

You guys realize he probably cannot talk about what his perfect CP is because he currently has it in development.

 

🤫

[dumbdumb]

uniform total weight=1 ounce

[grayhawk]

5 hours ago, ArchAngel72 said:

You guys realize he probably cannot talk about what his perfect CP is because he currently has it in development.

 

🤫

Giterdone!