Can we help our partner on foul/fair when in the middle w/2-man?

[SeeingEyeDog]

So, I was working with a senior partner tonight. A superb umpire with whom I have a great connection with on the field when things go off-schedule...such was the case again tonight.

R3 only so, I start this play in C. Batter hits a fly ball that comes down between the mound and the 3B line. F5 ranges in, sets up for the catch and...I have moved to within 10 feet of his left. The ball comes down in fair territory, ticks his glove, hits the ground and starts rolling towards the line and eventually crosses the line and settles in foul territory. As soon as it ticks his glove in fair territory, I turn in to my partner, call his name and give him the mechanic we normally use for a foul tip on a pitch at the plate and then point emphatically in fair territory saying nothing else. He quickly nods and also points it fair saying nothing else. I get the touch of the batter-runner at 1B and R3 has returned to 3B. Nobody says a word...

In 2-man, this is plate's call...absolutely. Yet, I'm 10 feet from this play (with no angle for the line) and he's 50-60 feet away. I didn't know if he saw what I saw or not in the moment but, clearly the information I had was valuable and pertinent to the the play. In post-game, he did say he had the touch of the glove but, that he really appreciated me giving him what I had.

Anybody have anything else here, mechanically? Was this correct? Was it incorrect? Is there a better mechanic? Is this worthy of adding to pre-game discussions going forward?

~Dawg 

[dumbdumb]

just asking, but when at home plate do you call his name and give the pulled foot signal to him when he is at first base. have not seen this yet, at college games or higher. have seen get togethers after the fact for pretty much anything like this, and then rulings after the fact to make things as fair as possible, (placement of runners, etc.).

[BLWizzRanger]

IDK... you aren't ruling on the catch at F5, nor are you ruling on the fair/foul, which both are clearly PUs calls. But, you are ruling on a touched ball clearly in fair territory that after the touch just so happened to go into foul territory.

IMHO, that is either of your calls and you wouldnt/didnt do anything incorrect in pointing that out.

I dont think what you did in giving a tipped ball sign is wrong. Giving benefit of doubt, I dont think if the ball was closer to the line, you would have pointed fair. But you did as it was so clearly a fair ball.

What you alleviated was the coach coming out and questioning how you could see a fair/foul ball from the middle if you got together. Maybe.

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[JonnyCat]

IMO, that's the plate umpires call. If he wants to get together, you can give him information.

It's commonly taught that you need to know your area of responsibility, so as to not have conflicting or "no calls."

I'm not saying what you did was wrong, do whatever works for you on the field. Providing information on the field is fine.

However, someone needs to take responsibility for a call.

Did you ask your PU if he saw the play clearly? Was the information you gave him necessary? I know you pointed out he appreciated the information, but did he really need it?

[BigBlue4u]

The only problem with making a call outside of your area is the possibility of getting a double call. I think you can stay out of trouble by following the guideline of not calling outside your area.  In your play, let your partner make the call.  If he did call it foul, you would then call "time" go to him and tell him you positively saw the ball off the fielder's glove in fair territory.  It would then be up to him to stay with his call or change it based on the information you provided.

[noumpere]

I would try to make eye contact and read the situation. 

 

Is he already pointing fair (as he should if it's touched near the line)?  If so, no need to give him information.

Is he prepared to call it foul?  Maybe try to get his attention.

Is he looking at you with a "what did you see?" look?  Give him the information.

[Richvee]

I think eye contact and a subtle “foul tip” signal like you gave is perfect. The point fair calling out his name may have been overkill… It is 100% PU call. 
 

Coincidently, I had almost the same, but mirror image today. R1, I’m on “b”. Pop up between mound and 1b line. F1,2,&3 converge, it’s 10 feee from me, I see the ball fall untouched. I looked at my PU, as the ball rolled foul, he gave me a quick look and I gave a subtle, low safe sign and a shake of the head “no”. He made the foul call. 

[SeeingEyeDog]

OK, so it's plate's call. I absolutely agree with that...

Let's propose for a moment this play occurs and PU misses the ball touching the fielder in fair territory, it rolls foul and he kills it foul. We get together. I tell him I have the ball touching the fielder in fair territory and therefore a fair ball. How do we un-eff that situation?

I am familiar with calling something fair and then retroactively calling it foul and we reset everybody and hang a strike on the batter if there's room on the count for that...but, a ball that was called foul that was fair upon further consultation? In this case, R3 got a great jump and was nearly to the plate by the time a fielder got to the ball in foul territory. He would have absolutely been safe and scored. Batter-runner? 50/50 on a play at 1B. There were two outs time of pitch so an out by the batter-runner and no run scores...

~Dawg

[Richvee]

3 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

OK, so it's plate's call. I absolutely agree with that...

Let's propose for a moment this play occurs and PU misses the ball touching the fielder in fair territory, it rolls foul and he kills it foul. We get together. I tell him I have the ball touching the fielder in fair territory and therefore a fair ball. How do we un-eff that situation?

I am familiar with calling something fair and then retroactively calling it foul and we reset everybody and hang a strike on the batter if there's room on the count for that...but, a ball that was called foul that was fair upon further consultation? In this case, R3 got a great jump and was nearly to the plate by the time a fielder got to the ball in foul territory. He would have absolutely been safe and scored. Batter-runner? 50/50 on a play at 1B. There were two outs time of pitch so an out by the batter-runner and no run scores...

~Dawg

You can't unring that bell. That's not even reviewable where available.  I like the communication and the "foul tip" gesture. Maybe even a nod of the head while  you're giving it to say "yeah, that tipped the glove". At that point you've done all you can to help PU call the ball fair.  I'm just not a fan of BU "emphatically" pointing fair.....If PU missed your cue, and calls it foul....You can be sure someone on the offence saw you point it fair, and now you have bigger issues.

[BigBlue4u]

4 hours ago, Richvee said:

You can't unring that bell. That's not even reviewable where available.

In this play, I don't know why not.  Reconstruct the play and place the runners where they would be if the call was correctly made. 

[noumpere]

24 minutes ago, BigBlue4u said:

In this play, I don't know why not.  Reconstruct the play and place the runners where they would be if the call was correctly made. 

In NCAA, you can only do this when the ball first touches past first or third baseman :

 

😎 Changing a call of “foul” to “fair�”
Note: Umpires may conference after a batted ball that first touches the ground
or a fielder beyond the initial position of the first or third baseman and has
been ruled "foul." After consultation with the entire umpire crew, the Crew Chief
will place the base runners where the crew believes they would have advanced had
the ball been first ruled fair. The Crew Chief and crew should be conservative on
their placement of base runners