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Eliminate the A position


HankC

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The A position provides no increase to better umpiring .

it leads to unnecessary ' if-then ' scenarios for the PU such as fair-foul calls when the BU is in the A ( or not ) and the call on grounders down the line and over the bag .

The B spot is much better for angle for all  bang-bang plays at first .

on every hit to the outfield , the BU in the A runs toward the B spot while ensuring the BR touches first and is not obstructed .

we should start in the B spot and get rid of the A .

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I strongly, strongly disagree with the notion that you have a better look at bang bang plays at first from B. Like, I can't begin to express how much I disagree. A shoukd stay literally for the sole reason of taking plays at first. 

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48 minutes ago, Biscuit said:

I strongly, strongly disagree with the notion that you have a better look at bang bang plays at first from B. Like, I can't begin to express how much I disagree. A shoukd stay literally for the sole reason of taking plays at first. 

I have to ask if @HankC is trolling? But if he is not I would like to hear his mods to 3 and 4 man positioning.

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B is not a better look at plays at 1B. 

An umpire in A calling fair/foul past the bag is much more credible than PU. Especially on hot shots right over the bag, and line drives, fly balls down the line. 

And if you're really worried about"if/then decisions" and rotations, I suggest staying away from 3-man completely. 

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1 hour ago, Biscuit said:

I strongly, strongly disagree with the notion that you have a better look at bang bang plays at first from B. Like, I can't begin to express how much I disagree. A shoukd stay literally for the sole reason of taking plays at first. 

And I absolutely cannot agree more with you, Brother Biscuit...If we're in B with nobody on and the throw to 1B is from the left side of the infield, F3 is likely stepping right toward us or on a close vector. We are simply not going to see a pulled foot from there. Depending on how hard the ball is hit and the skill of the fielders, we can take steps to get 90 degrees from 1B and get a bit of angle on F3's foot but, it's sub-optimal really to take those from B with nobody on.

Additionally, swipe tags at 1B are very difficult to see from the B position even if you do get the right angle and close distance. If the ball is hit down the line and F3 takes it in fair territory and is swiping at the batter runner in foul territory, you have F3 between you and where the tag will likely be made. If you were coming out of A here, you could wedge that up a bit and get a look into the keyhole between the fielder and the batter runner and see that tag very clearly...or the miss swipe.

~Dawg

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Put me in the camp that the B position is definitely NOT a better position than A for plays at 1B. You are MUCH more likely to be straightlined on throws from F5 and F6, which means viewing a pulled foot is far more difficult.

For fair/foul on bounding balls, U1 in A is in a better position than PU. I always take it to the cutout as PU because U1 has a better look from the cutout to the bag. If he has to vacate the line to avoid the ball, PU can back him up (same as U3/U4 in 3 and 4 man).

The only time I've seen U1 start in B with no runners in 2 man is when U1 is injured and just can't run.

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14 hours ago, HankC said:

The A position provides no increase to better umpiring .

it leads to unnecessary ' if-then ' scenarios for the PU such as fair-foul calls when the BU is in the A ( or not ) and the call on grounders down the line and over the bag .

The B spot is much better for angle for all  bang-bang plays at first .

on every hit to the outfield , the BU in the A runs toward the B spot while ensuring the BR touches first and is not obstructed .

we should start in the B spot and get rid of the A .

B spot might be a better for angle on SOME bang-bang plays at first.

The A umpire is in foul territory reducing the risk of umpire interference on hard hit balls.

The A umpire is not in F4's way.  You accept that risk with R1...no need to accept it with no runners.

The A umpire has a better view of fair/foul over and beyond the bag...if for no other reason than he doesn't have F2, F3, and BR between him and the ball.

The A umpire has a better view of check swings.

I'll say the same thing about your argument as I once said about a player I was evaluating - can't hit, can't run, can't catch, can't throw...besides that he's a pretty good ball player.

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Thanks for the great replies ! I'll give a few rejoinders :
 
check-swing appeals : The BU is asked when in the A, B or C , for both lefties and righties . It's better to be in the B/C for a lefty .
 
Bang-bang plays : when we are on the dirt , the runner and F3 merge into one mass of legs . On the grass the runner is approaching from the right and there is better separation of the two players and we dont view the runner's foot through the first baseman's legs . 
 
Fair/foul : the PU has all calls down the left field line and the right field line with runners on . Rather than 85% of the time , or 67% or 75% , just make it 100% . The PU also has a better , smaller angle for fair/foul on a dropped running catch attempt .
 
Pulled foot : the PU always has the best angle for a pulled foot and they are definitely watching with no one on .
 
Swipe tags : F3's body is almost always in the way of a swipe tag . not so when BU is on the grass . I've never seen a swipe tag beyond the bag , always on the plate side , where B is .
 
Fair/foul over the bag : PU has the calls at 3rd already . 
 
Umpire interference is always a risk , and happens , what , once a season or so ? With no runners  on , F4 is less likely to be shading toward 2nd.
 
On every outfield hit , BU uses the play's first 5 seconds running inside with our back to the runner and often to the ball . 
 
All in all , we spend two-thirds or three-quarters of the game on the grass . Lets make it 100% .
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19 hours ago, jimurrayalterego said:

I have to ask if @HankC is trolling? But if he is not I would like to hear his mods to 3 and 4 man positioning.

 

While I don't agree with all of his logic, he is not trolling.  I'm pretty certain this was something Carl Childress used to throw out there.  I believe his logic was more for the old umpires who could not move as fast, so it gives them a "head start."  I may be wrong on that.

As for "angle on a banger" . . . why the heck are you standing still and not getting the angle?  Oh yeah, because the Ol' Smitty generation teaches you to "get still and keep your head still."  A locked in bad position is still a locked in bad position.  Move, see the play, get the angle, show that you are working.

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15 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

 

While I don't agree with all of his logic, he is not trolling.  I'm pretty certain this was something Carl Childress used to throw out there.  I believe his logic was more for the old umpires who could not move as fast, so it gives them a "head start."  I may be wrong on that.

As for "angle on a banger" . . . why the heck are you standing still and not getting the angle?  Oh yeah, because the Ol' Smitty generation teaches you to "get still and keep your head still."  A locked in bad position is still a locked in bad position.  Move, see the play, get the angle, show that you are working.

As an old umpire with hip/knee issues I tend to work the B over the A in a 2 man crew.

I really do not see any negative issues with this.

 

I

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On 10/22/2024 at 6:41 PM, HankC said:
Bang-bang plays : when we are on the dirt , the runner and F3 merge into one mass of legs . On the grass the runner is approaching from the right and there is better separation of the two players and we dont view the runner's foot through the first baseman's legs . 
  • Most F3s are stretching away from the bag, hence there is no mass of legs to look through when in A.
Fair/foul : the PU has all calls down the left field line and the right field line with runners on . Rather than 85% of the time , or 67% or 75% , just make it 100% . The PU also has a better , smaller angle for fair/foul on a dropped running catch attempt .
  • 15%, 33% or 25% of the time we can offer a better view of fair foul when in A. Keep in mind, in the hierarchy of importance, fair/foul tops the list of our responsibilities.
Swipe tags : F3's body is almost always in the way of a swipe tag . not so when BU is on the grass . I've never seen a swipe tag beyond the bag , always on the plate side , where B is .
  • When F3 swipes they usually swipe from inside the infield toward the foul line. In B there is a greater likelihood of being straight lined than there is when in A. Taking a read step or two when the routine play descends into the 3rd World play makes seeing the tag or no tag much more apparent.
Umpire interference is always a risk , and happens , what , once a season or so ? With no runners  on , F4 is less likely to be shading toward 2nd.
  • Umpire interference can almost never happen in A since the umpire is behind F3, who has had an opportunity to play the ball. The chance of an umpire in A getting tangled with a fielder is similar in nature to when an umpire in in B with a charging middle infielder. 
 
On every outfield hit , BU uses the play's first 5 seconds running inside with our back to the runner and often to the ball . 
  • Proper training offers the umpire the understanding that while making their way into the infield they locate the ball and keep an eye on the BR as they approach 1B to ensure a touch of the base takes place. One of the standing edicts of umpiring is to keep your chest to the ball, which is not a difficult  challenge while moving into the working area.

YMMV.

 

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On 10/22/2024 at 7:15 PM, The Man in Blue said:

As for "angle on a banger" . . . why the heck are you standing still and not getting the angle?  Oh yeah, because the Ol' Smitty generation teaches you to "get still and keep your head still."  A locked in bad position is still a locked in bad position.  Move, see the play, get the angle, show that you are working.

Excuse me if I'm reading this wrong. Are you advocating moving on a banger at 1B? Locking in on a banger at 1B, with a true throw is not "Ol' school Smitty umpiring. As a matter of fact,  It's the preferred method for taking plays at 1B. 

1. Ball's hit..Take 2-3 steps fair. 

2. Watch the ball to the fielder, watch the fielder's release of the ball. Do not follow the path of the ball to "read a true thow". Turn to F3 as soon as the ball is released. F3 will tell you if the throw is off line by his movements. 

If the throw is true, lock in and be steady for the play. (Moving head/moving camera = fuzzy picture)The only time you should be moving as the ball approaches is if you have read F3 and and a swipe tag is probable. Only then move to get in the widow. 

Getting set for these plays from "A" is far superior to any view you can get starting in "B".. Getting the call right on one or two of these bangers or swipe tags per game from the "A" position makes it worthwhile to be there every time with no runners on.  

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No, the key word there was ANGLE, not banger . . . I am saying move to get the angle.  I don't care if it is a banger or not, if you don't have the angle, you don't have the angle.

Since you toss two steps fair in there, yes!  I am a big advocate of 2SF as you say . . . that 45-degree stuff is ludicrous.  Whether you use 2SF or 45-degrees, though, you need to be willing to move to get the angle once you have your initial read.  Do not park it and leave it.  If the play evolves (or devolves!), your position must evolve, too.

I do agree with you that a play at first from B is less than optimal, but as many will agree on here, it is always a game of compromise.  The advocates of eliminating A are taking the gain from B over the loss at A.  (Not saying I am one, just saying it is not crazy.)

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On 10/23/2024 at 10:40 AM, MT73 said:

As an old umpire with hip/knee issues I tend to work the B over the A in a 2 man crew.

I really do not see any negative issues with this.

 

I

I hear that.  Prior to my double knee replacement I used to start the inning inning in A and once the first runner reached 1B stay in B and C for the remainder of the half inning.   Having R3 score on a 2-2 wild pitch getting back to A to only come in one pitch later was a killer.   

I think this modification has some merits in some situations.   

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There is a reason this notion has never gone anywhere ... because the arguments you've put on the table are weak. 

Saying, for example, "PU already has the fair/foul calls down the LF line, or the ball bouncing over the 3B bag" is a weak argument. 

It is a BAD thing that PU has to take those calls in two-man.  It's not helping things by bringing the right side of the infield down to the level of the left side.  Those calls are made by PU out of sheer necessity, not because there is any merit to it.

Honestly, this sounds like the position of an old or lazy umpire who doesn't want to stay in shape.

I have ZERO objections to an umpire who is an elder statesman or hobbled in some way utilizing B as a way to "stay in the game," but for the rest of the fraternity, it ain't broke.

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On a hit to the outfield, the FU does NOT move to B! He cuts in, gets the touch at first, and the does crossover steps ON THE INSIDE to be ready for the play at 2B or follow the BR to third on potential extra bases.  

Even at my old age with decrepit knees, I could do all that!

Mike

Las Vegas

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I agree with eliminating the A position for most games 12U.  In fact, eliminate the  umpire entirely.

 

Heck, most non-varsity HS games could be one umpire, except we need to train the umpires for V and we need a witness / support for the coach / fan misbehavior.  Has almost nothing to do with getting better calls (that matter).

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