FED (and probably all others) Is it a balk if pitcher does anything incorrectly?

[Tog Gee]

So there are explicit balks in the rule book. Easy enough, but...

Is it true that it's a balk anytime, with runners on, the pitcher fails to pitch properly per definitions in 6-1-1 through 6-1-3?

Examples:

• RHP engages the plate with left foot (reverse stance)
• In windup pitcher steps illegally or uses more than 2 pumps or rotations
• Pitcher fails to take/simulate taking a sign and comes set/pitches
• In set position, pitcher does not start with throwing hand at side nor behind their back

 

With NO runners on are these ruled balls, or is time called and the pitcher corrected?

 

[maven]

The short answer is: yes, an illegal pitch with runners on is a balk, with no runners a ball.

But among your examples is just 1 actual pitch (which is a balk). The others, though illegal, are "don't do that." Kill it, tell F1 don't do that, and resume play.

If he does it again, it's not a balk (still not an illegal pitch). Instead, it's a failure to comply with the umpire's instruction. The penalty for such failure is ejection.

Accordingly, I do stop to ensure F1 and/or his coach know what I'm talking about before proceeding. This usually doesn't take long for HS varsity, but can take proportionately longer depending on the age group.

[Tog Gee]

Sounds like you are saying there has to be a pitch for a balk?

Hesitating/pausing when rising up from the stretch or stretching for the sign two times is a balk, no? Examples of just breaking pitching rules...

Edited September 16, 2024 by Tog Gee

[Tborze]

18 hours ago, Tog Gee said:

Sounds like you are saying there has to be a pitch for a balk?

Hesitating/pausing when rising up from the stretch or stretching for the sign two times is a balk, no? Another example of just breakingpitching rules...

Sounds like he’s saying, based on your examples, there has to be a pitch for a BALL, not a balk. 

[maven]

18 hours ago, Tog Gee said:

Sounds like you are saying there has to be a pitch for a balk?

Hesitating/pausing when rising up from the stretch or stretching for the sign two times is a balk, no? Another example of just breaking pitching rules...

True, a couple of balks can occur prior to the time of the pitch. Another is dropping the ball.

You asked: "Is it true that it's a balk anytime, with runners on, the pitcher fails to pitch properly per definitions in 6-1-1 through 6-1-3?" And those rules dictate legal pitching motions.

Your question is ambiguous: "fails to pitch properly" could mean "pitches improperly," which is an illegal pitch and a balk with runners on. It's a balk because the rule says an illegal pitch is a balk.

Or the question could mean "never starts the pitch, because F1 violates a rule prior to the time of pitch." It IS possible to violate those rules prior to the time of the pitch. If specified by rule, those are balks because that's the specified penalty. Otherwise, violations are NOT balks ("don't do that").

As ever, there is no shortcut to knowing the rules (and penalties).

[Tog Gee]

Ah yes, I meant "fails to execute the entire pitching routine legally.", not just delivering a pitch legally.

So I am including engaging the plate properly, taking a sign, footwork, throwing arm position while in the stretch, etc.

 

A RHP engages the plate with their left foot (backwards) do you call time and have them correct or is it illegal the moment they engage?

If a pitcher comes set and they neither took a sign nor simulated it, is it illegal the moment they come set?

If a pitcher, in the set position, uses windup footwork or a rocker step...?

 

Can these be balls and balks the moment they occur? Does a "ball" call require a pitch to be delivered?

 

I don't see how we'd ever have a pitcher violate these rules and just call time and say "don't do that", especially with runners on.

 

Edited September 12, 2024 by Tog Gee

[Jimurray]

3 hours ago, Tog Gee said:

Ah yes, I meant "fails to execute the entire pitching routine legally.", not just delivering a pitch legally.

So I am including engaging the plate properly, taking a sign, footwork, throwing arm position while in the stretch, etc.

 

A RHP engages the plate with their left foot (backwards) do you call time and have them correct or is it illegal the moment they engage?

 

I don't see how we'd ever have a pitcher violate these rules and just call time and say "don't do that", especially with runners on.

Since you mentioned “all others” , OBR has “don’t do that” for some violations that have no penalty. Taking the set with hands together is one. Jeff Nelson had another where he told the pitcher to have one hand at his side. Pitcher gave him some backtalk and was ejected. That is the procedure for a don’t do that. Warn and eject if not complied with. When this happened most thought he was preventing having to call a balk. No MLB ump would coach a pitcher to avoid a balk. The opposing manager would not be happy. 

[beerguy55]

"Is it a balk if pitcher does anything incorrectly?"

Yes - if the pitcher does any of these, it is a balk:

• wears hat off-center and/or with flat bill
• coughs/sneezes into hands instead of elbow
• does not wash hands after potty break
• eats with elbows on table
• takes first date to sub-par restaurant
• drinks cappuccino after 11 AM
• wears socks with sandals
• uses the same password on every website
• puts ketchup on spaghetti or turkey
• splits tens or hits on 17 when the dealer has a 6
• calls a pot sized bet to chase an inside straight
• doesn't let her finish

[Tog Gee]

33 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

wears hat off-center and/or with flat bill

Bruh. Flat bill is acceptable now.

[Tog Gee]

Found more info in rule book. Kinda what I was getting at here. 

 

Balk definition "c":

c. making an illegal pitch from any position (6-1, 6-2-1a-d);

 

 

 

Below 6-1-1 through 6-1-3 it says:

PENALTY (Arts. 1, 2, 3): The ball is dead immediately when an illegal pitch occurs. If there is no runner, a ball is awarded the batter. If there is a runner, such illegal act is a balk. In both situations, the umpire signals dead ball.

 

 

For illegal acts there are "don't do that" items, while items a-d are explicitly balks:

Illegal acts include
6.2.1 

a. applying a foreign substance to the ball;

b. spitting on the ball or glove;

c. rubbing the ball on the glove, clothing or person if the act defaces the ball;

d. discoloring the ball with dirt;

e. bringing the pitching hand in contact with the mouth without distinctly wiping off the pitching hand before it touches the ball;

f. wearing any items on the hands, wrists or arms that may be distracting to the batter;

g. wearing or placing tape, bandages or other foreign material (other than rosin) on the fingers or palm of the pitching hand that could come in contact With the ball;

h. wearing a glove/mitt that includes the colors white or gray;

i. wearing exposed undershirt sleeves that are white or gray

NOTE: Under umpire supervision , the pitcher may dry the hands by using a finely meshed cloth bag of powdered rosin . The pitcher may rub the ball with bare hands to remove any extraneous coating . 

PENALTY: For defacing the ball (a-d), the ball is dead immediately. [balk] The umpire may eject the pitcher. If such defaced ball is pitched and then detected, it is an illegal pitch. For infraction (e) , a ball shall be awarded each time a pitcher violates this rule and subsequently engages the pitching plate. For infraction (f-i), the infraction must be corrected before the next pitch.[don't do that] In (f), the umpire has sole authority to judge whether or not an item is distracting and shall have that item removed.

[MadMax]

23 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

Yes - if the pitcher does any of these, it is a balk:

Hey! Hey! 

Use your sign! Gosh! 

[MadMax]

23 hours ago, Tog Gee said:

For illegal acts there are "don't do that" items, while items a-d are explicitly balks:

Illegal acts include
6.2.1 

a. applying a foreign substance to the ball;

b. spitting on the ball or glove;

c. rubbing the ball on the glove, clothing or person if the act defaces the ball;

d. discoloring the ball with dirt;

You’re being quite draconian. 

None* of these happen in the modern pro game. Why? Because there is a substantial supply of rubbed, clean baseballs, and pitchers are examined by the umpires. 

Even in adult amateur, it never ceases to amaze me, these yokels bring us 3 balls each, and often times… they’re still in the packaging! (Cue the “protection” and “safe s3x” jokes). So what do most umpires do? Scoop up some dirt and rub the baseballs with it! 
Uhm, hypocritical much? I’m not against or outlawing rubbing up pearls… I’m against the pedantic, draconian fervor that we belt out, “That’s a Balk!!” and act all sanctimonious to amateur players. 

Same can be said, in an amateur game (think: high school), a pitcher is tossed a brand new, shiny pearl from the PU (“Nice gun, Blue!”), and he immediately looks at it, and stoops over to scrape it across the dirt of the mound, trying to make the ball more grippy / less slippery. 
Am I (as BU) supposed to belt out “Time!!, that’s a Balk! (Or, “That’s an illegal pitch! Ball added to the count!”)”.  No. For starters, the ball is (still) Dead anyway, because my PU partner hasn’t made the ball Live yet (said / pointed “Play!”). Second, to be that aggressively punitive has no place in the amateur game. I simply say, “Hey! Ya can’t do that. Let me do that (or, conversely, direct for another ball to be relayed out). If the ball’s too slick, just say so.” 
This sort of mitigation, instead of officious officiating, really shows well in the amateur game. If a pitcher starts aggressively rolling/wiping the ball against his pant leg… am I going to stand there, watching this, and drop an emphatic “Ha! Gotcha! Illegally defacing a ball! That’s a Balk!… Gary! Punch that box on the Umpire Bingo Card!” Instead, that wiping the ball on the pants leg probably means that there’s something wrong with the ball. So, call Time, and just direct the pitcher to get a new ball (from the PU). 

* – Of course, applying a foreign substance to a baseball is a serious offense; not only is it an illegal pitch / balk, but it’s also an Ejectable offense. It has happened in the pros, but it’s exceptionally rare. Item A is so serious, that Items B–D don’t happen in the pros, as they are constantly changing balls out. 

[Tog Gee]

22 minutes ago, MadMax said:

You’re being quite draconian. 

Good point about A through D and HS ball...

I'm just trying to understand exactly what the rulebook says is illegal, and importantly, what results in a balk and what results in a ball (depending on the circumstances).

What illegal actions are called a ball and which are simply corrected "don't do that". I am convinced that the penalty under 6-1 means that the result is either BALL or BALK.

 

"Illegal acts include, section 6.2.1" has varying penalties for the illegal acts, which is not easy to memorize. BALK, BALL and "stop doing that".

[Tog Gee]

On 9/11/2024 at 9:12 AM, maven said:

True, a couple of balks can occur prior to the time of the pitch. Another is dropping the ball.

You asked: "Is it true that it's a balk anytime, with runners on, the pitcher fails to pitch properly per definitions in 6-1-1 through 6-1-3?" And those rules dictate legal pitching motions.

Your question is ambiguous: "fails to pitch properly" could mean "pitches improperly," which is an illegal pitch and a balk with runners on. It's a balk because the rule says an illegal pitch is a balk.

Or the question could mean "never starts the pitch, because F1 violates a rule prior to the time of pitch." It IS possible to violate those rules prior to the time of the pitch. If specified by rule, those are balks because that's the specified penalty. Otherwise, violations are NOT balks ("don't do that").

As ever, there is no shortcut to knowing the rules (and penalties).

'Otherwise, violations are NOT balks ("don't do that").'

Maven, it sounds like you're saying violations of 6-1 with no runners on are "don't do that" if no pitch is delivered and no runners on.