Reference for not saying 'dead ball'

[BLWizzRanger]

OK, so this past weekend I got into a philosophical discussion with my partner about saying 'dead ball.'  I don't say it, he does, and he has tried for the second time to influence me to use it.  To get out of the circular disagreement, I broke down and told him that I will find the reference on not saying 'dead ball.'  I can't find any.  Anyone know of a reference or two that I can use?

I found the closed thread from 2022 here on Ump-Emp, but it doesn't provide a reference other than a defacto standard on not using it.  Is there one? 

 

BTW, on things not to say that was brought to my attention by another partner.... Don't holler "I have no balls" when teams are lackadaisical in bringing baseballs back to you in time during a game. I totally agree with this point from my partner...

[SeeingEyeDog]

@BLWizzRanger...this is a non-starter for me. Unless I am missing some kind of regional exception on this, it's either "FOUL!" or "TIME!" that kills the ball/play dead. If we want to get real technical (and we do!), a fair batted ball clearing the fence kills the ball/play dead, too of course...

This is my opinion...FOUL! and or TIME! are things that sound clear, distinct and unmistakable. Presuming everyone inside the fence can hear an umpire say this (which is also why we get our hands up...), The Game is conditioned to know that means the ball/play is dead.

DEAD! and or DEAD BALL!...is unclear, is indistinct...wait what? The ball is red? It's Ted's ball? Again, just my opinion...do any college or pro guys have anything on this?

~Dawg

[Jimurray]

15 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

@BLWizzRanger...this is a non-starter for me. Unless I am missing some kind of regional exception on this, it's either "FOUL!" or "TIME!" that kills the ball/play dead. If we want to get real technical (and we do!), a fair batted ball clearing the fence kills the ball/play dead, too of course...

This is my opinion...FOUL! and or TIME! are things that sound clear, distinct and unmistakable. Presuming everyone inside the fence can hear an umpire say this (which is also why we get our hands up...), The Game is conditioned to know that means the ball/play is dead.

DEAD! and or DEAD BALL!...is unclear, is indistinct...wait what? The ball is red? It's Ted's ball? Again, just my opinion...do any college or pro guys have anything on this?

~Dawg

You can't take the "dead ball" out of an ex player. You can even kneel and pray for it at a clinic and they will still say it in a game. I have even heard it from a PU in the CWS. You also can't take the "foul ball" out of an ex player. Live with it. But if we are going into minutiae, how many of you signal time and then point foul which is not necessary. The history, from Jim Evans, was the AL signaled time and the NL signaled with a foul point. When they merged they signaled both, time and then a point. How many of you do both when the point is not needed? 

[The Man in Blue]

1 hour ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

@BLWizzRanger...this is a non-starter for me. Unless I am missing some kind of regional exception on this, it's either "FOUL!" or "TIME!" that kills the ball/play dead. If we want to get real technical (and we do!), a fair batted ball clearing the fence kills the ball/play dead, too of course...

This is my opinion...FOUL! and or TIME! are things that sound clear, distinct and unmistakable. Presuming everyone inside the fence can hear an umpire say this (which is also why we get our hands up...), The Game is conditioned to know that means the ball/play is dead.

DEAD! and or DEAD BALL!...is unclear, is indistinct...wait what? The ball is red? It's Ted's ball? Again, just my opinion...do any college or pro guys have anything on this?

~Dawg

 

I'll give you the first two paragraphs, but you are just being obtuse on the last one.

I could counter and ask, "Why did the umpire call for a rhyme?  Is he cooking?  Does he need thyme?  Maybe he stepped in slime?"

The reference for not using the term "dead ball" is simply that the rule book does not prescribe this language (although it does use it).  Or it could be that DEAD BALL! is a softball thing! (Stick that nose a little higher up and don't drown when it rains).

Personally, I see a distinction in the call.  To me, "TIME!" is a call for a requested stoppage in play, while "DEAD BALL!" is a declaration that play is to stop due to an errant action (ball out of play, hit batter, etc.).  Yes, the ball is dead in both situations, but it is a matter of why, not what.  Does it really matter?  I can't think of a reason other than it clearly communicates what we are seeing and that I didn't screw up and grant a coach time during play.  We use a "safe" call to indicate something like a batted ball coming close, but NOT contacting a runner . . . the use of DEAD BALL! is no different, IMO.  We aren't calling the runner safe, we are communicating that we saw it and play should continue.

Personally, the continued insistence on not using a descriptive term ranks right up there with the insistence on wearing navy shirts.  Get over it and get with the times. 

 

Nonetheless, I worked hard to break myself of the DEAD BALL habit.

 

 

[The Man in Blue]

1 hour ago, Jimurray said:

You can't take the "dead ball" out of an ex player. You can even kneel and pray for it at a clinic and they will still say it in a game. I have even heard it from a PU in the CWS. You also can't take the "foul ball" out of an ex player. Live with it. But if we are going into minutiae, how many of you signal time and then point foul which is not necessary. The history, from Jim Evans, was the AL signaled time and the NL signaled with a foul point. When they merged they signaled both, time and then a point. How many of you do both when the point is not needed? 

Huh.

I never made the connection for "hands up" as a foul ball call to "hands up" for a TIME! call.  I never even considered it.  I always thought it was a distinct call from a "fair point" so we (hopefully) wouldn't have a brain fart.

The only time I point foul is after signaling the catch on a foul pop up.  I can't say I really know the reason for that either.  Assumed it was just for the bookkeeper/statistician (who I would hope isn't that blind).

[zm1283]

The ball being alive or dead are statuses. It is not necessary to use those words to make the ball dead or alive. 

"Dead ball" is a softball thing and sounds silly. 

[noumpere]

7 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

The only time I point foul is after signaling the catch on a foul pop up.  I can't say I really know the reason for that either.  Assumed it was just for the bookkeeper/statistician (who I would hope isn't that blind).

I think you have that backwards.  If the ball is close to the line, point foul (or fair) as soon as it's touched.  Then signal the out when the catch is completed (if needed -- it's often obvious so no signal is needed) .

Oh yeah -- put me in the no "dead ball" camp, but with no specific reference.  Higher-level umpires do not say it; lower-level umpires often do.

 

[Kevin_K]

NFHS

5.2.1  - "Time" shall be called by the umpire and play shall be suspended when:

NCAA

3.7.a  - Call or indicate play to start the game. "Time" when the ball becomes dead and "Play" when play is resumed.

OBR

5.12.a - When an umpire suspends play, he shall call “Time.”

[The Man in Blue]

4 hours ago, noumpere said:

I think you have that backwards.  If the ball is close to the line, point foul (or fair) as soon as it's touched.  Then signal the out when the catch is completed (if needed -- it's often obvious so no signal is needed) .

Whoops … yes, thank you!  Flipped my order while typing.

[The Man in Blue]

11 hours ago, zm1283 said:

"Dead ball" is a softball thing and sounds silly. 

4 hours ago, noumpere said:

Oh yeah -- put me in the no "dead ball" camp, but with no specific reference.  Higher-level umpires do not say it; lower-level umpires often do.

Sound logic that we should base all of our umpiring on.

High level umpires flock their hats and shoeshine their belts, too.  Don't forget your shoes had better shine also, none of this athletic canvas/mesh stuff.

Times change, the game evolves and our umpiring should keep up.  Yes, we need to have a standard and be consistent.  No, we should not continue to live in a bygone era “just because” or to maintain some sense of superiority while you are in a community park with a couple dozen 12 year olds BOYS.  (Emphasized because girls and softball are icky, right Alfafa?)

[SeeingEyeDog]

17 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

 

I'll give you the first two paragraphs, but you are just being obtuse on the last one.

I could counter and ask, "Why did the umpire call for a rhyme?  Is he cooking?  Does he need thyme?  Maybe he stepped in slime?"

The reference for not using the term "dead ball" is simply that the rule book does not prescribe this language (although it does use it).  Or it could be that DEAD BALL! is a softball thing! (Stick that nose a little higher up and don't drown when it rains).

Personally, I see a distinction in the call.  To me, "TIME!" is a call for a requested stoppage in play, while "DEAD BALL!" is a declaration that play is to stop due to an errant action (ball out of play, hit batter, etc.).  Yes, the ball is dead in both situations, but it is a matter of why, not what.  Does it really matter?  I can't think of a reason other than it clearly communicates what we are seeing and that I didn't screw up and grant a coach time during play.  We use a "safe" call to indicate something like a batted ball coming close, but NOT contacting a runner . . . the use of DEAD BALL! is no different, IMO.  We aren't calling the runner safe, we are communicating that we saw it and play should continue.

Personally, the continued insistence on not using a descriptive term ranks right up there with the insistence on wearing navy shirts.  Get over it and get with the times. 

 

Nonetheless, I worked hard to break myself of the DEAD BALL habit.

 

 

Oh...so, it's a softball thing. How could I possibly be aware of mechanics for a sport I don't work?

I've personally always wondered if the ponies in water polo have to wear a United States Coast Guard certified life preserver or if the slightly less buoyant Luxembourg Coast Guard certification is acceptable? I have been searching for a certification on this since 1974 and I still can't find that either...your insights on using "dead ball" though were lit, bro so, I'm anxious to see how you come in on water polo.

Gotta' go...my navy shirts just finished in the dryer...😆🙃😉

~Dawg

[noumpere]

6 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

Sound logic that we should base all of our umpiring on.

 

Does it matter to the Game?  No.  Does it matter to perception?  Yes.  (maybe it shouldn't, but it does).

Will changing it alone get you to the next level?  No.  Will saying "dead ball" keep you from advancing?  Eventually, yes.

If are a big-dog who has a good reputation and can get away with it at your level and who doesn't want to advance, then feel free to ignore the advice.

[Jimurray]

43 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Will saying "dead ball" keep you from advancing?  Eventually, yes.

 

I was surprised to hear "dead ball" from the PU on a HBP in a past College World Series.

[The Man in Blue]

5 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

Oh...so, it's a softball thing. How could I possibly be aware of mechanics for a sport I don't work?

I've personally always wondered if the ponies in water polo have to wear a United States Coast Guard certified life preserver or if the slightly less buoyant Luxembourg Coast Guard certification is acceptable? I have been searching for a certification on this since 1974 and I still can't find that either...your insights on using "dead ball" though were lit, bro so, I'm anxious to see how you come in on water polo.

Gotta' go...my navy shirts just finished in the dryer...😆🙃😉

~Dawg

It actually is not, though many attribute it that way to continue their sport snobbery.  The softball rulebook is written much the same way ("TIME!" is the written mechanic.)  Softball culture though is more accepting of the practical uses of TIME and DEAD BALL.  There are things baseball does better, there are things softball does better.  If the people involved with both would stop being so smug towards the others, they could learn a lot from one another.

 

[The Man in Blue]

4 hours ago, noumpere said:

Does it matter to the Game?  No.  Does it matter to perception?  Yes.  (maybe it shouldn't, but it does).

Will changing it alone get you to the next level?  No.  Will saying "dead ball" keep you from advancing?  Eventually, yes.

If are a big-dog who has a good reputation and can get away with it at your level and who doesn't want to advance, then feel free to ignore the advice.

As I said, I have worked hard to break the habit.  Doesn't mean I find it any less stupid and won't continue to advocate for a more accurate form of communicating as an umpire.

The only reason it matters as a perception is because those stodgy old big-dogs want it to matter.

It is the same as announcing pitch locations.  DON'T DO IT.  DON'T DO IT.  Hey, this might be a good practice . . . DON'T DO IT.  That guy is doing it and it has game management benefits.  DON'T DO IT.  Why?  DON'T DO IT because a guy who refuses to use texting, still mails out checks, and who demands you do not carry an indi-clicker-ator in the field says so.  Right . . . got it.  It doesn't make me a better umpire, it makes me somebody who will listen to him with all his grievances against the game.

[dumbdumb]

no different than wearing the beanie plate hat vs 4, 6, or 8 bill hat on the plate, or even turning the bill around when on the plate like catchers do if the back has more protection than the front bill area does, or the pivot step vs look over the shoulder or rim or do not rim or those stogy ole young guys that don't like my flip phone, and those that don't like my red nose from niacin and won't let me play in the reindeer games anymore, or wearing all black base shoes rather than flash some white streaks here or there, or the point vs the fist strike, black leather vs high gloss leather. shave vs no shave on the plate, pointing and yelling foul ball vs hands over head and yelling foul ball. high water pants vs touch the ground pants, taking mask off with right hand versus left hand. balloon vs inside chest protector. on and on.

or the printer doesn't work, versus the printer has a paper jam.

or a gazillion versus a whole sh_tload.

or myocardial infarction vs heart attack.

on and on

 

 

[SeeingEyeDog]

9 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

It actually is not, though many attribute it that way to continue their sport snobbery.  The softball rulebook is written much the same way ("TIME!" is the written mechanic.)  Softball culture though is more accepting of the practical uses of TIME and DEAD BALL.  There are things baseball does better, there are things softball does better.  If the people involved with both would stop being so smug towards the others, they could learn a lot from one another.

 

I don't know what else to tell you, Azure-Mano. Despite my best intentions, I feel I have offended you and that was not my intention. I was trained for baseball, I go to camps for baseball and all I work is baseball. I know there are a few softball umpires in my association but, my association is a baseball association and I don't ever discuss softball with my local brothers. Perhaps I should...

But, to your point...I can absolutely acknowledge the snobbery. The discussions around the double-bag at 1B alone...this is such an obvious thing to help baseball (as it has helped softball) and yes, there are some states and perhaps some municipalities who have adopted it.

The conversation around this vocalization is above my paygrade. My association wants us using Time! or Foul! only to kill the play so, all I can do is do as I'm told and at our next meeting ask, "Where are we with using a DEAD BALL! vocalization? I think it has some merit and here's why..."

Ferraris and Porsches are both great cars, each with their own pros and cons. Softball and baseball are both great games and so are the umpires who work those games. We don't have to do everything the same all the time but, we should be open to listening to each other.

~Dawg

[BLWizzRanger]

9 hours ago, dumbdumb said:

no different than wearing the beanie plate hat vs 4, 6, or 8 bill hat on the plate, or even turning the bill around when on the plate like catchers do if the back has more protection than the front bill area does, or the pivot step vs look over the shoulder or rim or do not rim or those stogy ole young guys that don't like my flip phone, and those that don't like my red nose from niacin and won't let me play in the reindeer games anymore, or wearing all black base shoes rather than flash some white streaks here or there, or the point vs the fist strike, black leather vs high gloss leather. shave vs no shave on the plate, pointing and yelling foul ball vs hands over head and yelling foul ball. high water pants vs touch the ground pants, taking mask off with right hand versus left hand. balloon vs inside chest protector. on and on.

or the printer doesn't work, versus the printer has a paper jam.

or a gazillion versus a whole sh_tload.

or myocardial infarction vs heart attack.

on and on

 

 

You forgot:  https://images.app.goo.gl/DeDRH4A9H2ARpwke8

22 hours ago, Kevin_K said:

NFHS

5.2.1  - "Time" shall be called by the umpire and play shall be suspended when:

NCAA

3.7.a  - Call or indicate play to start the game. "Time" when the ball becomes dead and "Play" when play is resumed.

OBR

5.12.a - When an umpire suspends play, he shall call “Time.”

Thank you @Kevin_K.

 

I think I just like the simplicity of saying one word (foul, time, ball, strike, batter) as compared to "dead ball" and maybe that is the reason the dislike of having to say "dead ball" by the elders (lol) because you can't just say "dead" when it is needed.  You have to say "dead ball."

[Aging_Arbiter]

On 9/1/2024 at 9:45 PM, BLWizzRanger said:

, I broke down and told him that I will find the reference on not saying 'dead ball.'

Easier yet, have HIM show you where it IS referenced.  I don't think it is.  As previously mentioned, foul/time, create a dead ball situation.  I'm pretty sure you won't find it in any mechanics manual.  

Then again, I could be mistooken.

 

[834k3r]

On 9/1/2024 at 6:45 PM, BLWizzRanger said:

Don't holler "I have no balls" when teams are lackadaisical in bringing baseballs back to you in time during a game.

I said this very thing at a JV game last year. No one said anything (that I could hear, anyway), but I made a mental note of how it sounded. I now say "I have none in the bag," but more importantly I ask "4 balls, please!" when I have two in the bag. That means most of the time I get 2 balls from the dugout. 

🤷

[MadMax]

On 9/1/2024 at 8:45 PM, BLWizzRanger said:

I got into a philosophical discussion with my partner about saying 'dead ball.'  I don't say it, he does, and he has tried for the second time to influence me to use it. 

If this was a truly philosophical discussion, with both parties being generally equal (as opposed to a/the typical downhill directive of evaluator / trainer / instructor / chief → →  novice / trainee / student / apprentice / underling / peon), then he (being your counterpart) needs to defend and advocate for its use, since he’s in the (substantial) minority. There should be pros and cons presented, and examples of use to ruminate over. All we have here is one habit trying to “out-substantiate” or “out-muscle” another habit. 

So… why do we do “the/this/that habit” (whichever it is)? 🤔 Is it trained into us? Is it engrained or impressed into us by someone we’ve worked with or for? Or, is it picked up and transposed from other applications we’ve immersed ourselves in? 

Hold that thought. 

There’s a similar amateur phrase that pops up ever so often, that of “My Time! My Time!” There is no need for embellishment, or possessive pronouns! So why do some of our colleagues (continue to) use this malapropism? Well, they got it from basketball refereeing, where Time Outs are ascribed to either team… unless, of course, the referee ascribes it to himself; thus, “my time.” 

So, does “Dead ball!” have a similar origin story? Likely. And, it likely stems from football, wherein one of the officials, instead of (repeatedly or additionally) blowing his whistle, will tell adjacent players “Ball’s dead gentlemen!” or “Dead ball! Dead ball!” on an incomplete forward pass, or on a play ruled down, or dead. 

This borrowing of terms is frowned upon by TPTB, because TPTB want to know and trust that you (as an official) are fully immersed and engaged in the sport at hand; their sport, the one they chose to place upon / assign you to. 

On 9/2/2024 at 7:16 AM, noumpere said:

Higher-level umpires do not say it; lower-level umpires often do.

Lower-level guys are the ones working multiple sports, thus, there are increased chances of transposing terms. High-level guys don’t do this, partly by specialization and focus on one sport, partly by (substantial) repetition (over the years), partly by disciplined training. It’s that last bit that gets TPTB all jazzed up, when they get to “impress upon” the next generation / wave / class of officials. I won’t say “umpires” alone, because this occurs in just about every profession, and indeed across multiple sports officiating. Master craftsmen don’t want to entertain new, experimental, or alternate methods from their apprentices; they expect their acolytes to respect their experience, pay attention to their wisdom, and follow their practices. 
I know this well –  I’m the son of a master craftsman (and coach, and quarterback, and pitcher… ).* 

14 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

Ferraris and Porsches are both great cars, each with their own pros and cons. Softball and baseball are both great games and so are the umpires who work those games.

You know, thank you for bringing up this comparison. They are both great cars. However, the more emotionally and financially invested an acolyte is to Ferrari or Porsche, the more dogmatically and vociferously they will defend their preferred marque, and will – get this – claim and smear the other marque as inferior. Not “different”, or “alternative”; inferior. Lesser. Worse. 
Softball does not want to be viewed as baseball’s younger, lesser, less prestigious, less capable sibling. The PTB at the head of Softball – both players & coaches, and officials – don’t want softball derided as “easy” (easier); they want the same regard, the same respect, the same – here it comes – investment. 

On 9/2/2024 at 10:44 PM, The Man in Blue said:

It doesn't make me a better umpire, it makes me somebody who will listen to him with all his grievances against the game.

“As long as I sit in this chair (as TPTB for WIAA Baseball), the shirt color will never be black”. – Now-retired PTB of WIAA Baseball. 
New PTB of WIAA Baseball? “Black is back on the board.” Wow. You’re just left wondering, which black-clad MLBU ran over that guy’s dog earlier in life? 

On 9/2/2024 at 6:54 PM, Jimurray said:

I was surprised to hear "dead ball" from the PU on a HBP in a past College World Series.

Huh. Just like a CWS CC & PU going to one knee on an elaborate ꓘ mechanic, like a samurai, for all the world to see, but has the gall to say that a fellow PU’s K call is “too showy”, too “look at me, I’m umpiring”. 
Gee, hypocritical much? 

On 9/1/2024 at 8:45 PM, BLWizzRanger said:

Don't holler "I have no balls" when teams are lackadaisical in bringing baseballs back to you

4 hours ago, 834k3r said:

I said this very thing at a JV game last year. No one said anything (that I could hear, anyway), but I made a mental note of how it sounded.

Worse yet, you’re one of those “announcer umpires”, who give the count after every pitch, to full detail – “2 balls, 1 strike”… pitch <thud> “2 balls, 2 strikes”… 

“Hey Blue, what count do you have?” 
“I have no balls, and two strikes!” 

“Yup, we thought so.” <snicker>

* – As such, I was a catcher, a wide receiver, and became an umpire. Spot a trend? 

[JSam21]

Everyone is waxing philosophically about this when it really may be as simple as, why use two words when one word will do the job? 

Simplicity. Call time, then make your awards, enforce your penalties, etc.

[kylehutson]

On 9/1/2024 at 8:45 PM, BLWizzRanger said:

Don't holler "I have no balls" when teams are lackadaisical in bringing baseballs back to you in time during a game.

Or if you do, be sure to enunciate so the grandma in the back of the bleachers can hear. And make it "I don't have any balls!"

(I've never done this, but I've been sorely tempted a couple of times with teams that I knew would know I said it on purpose.)
 

23 hours ago, BLWizzRanger said:

because you can't just say "dead" when it is needed.

I do have one guy I regularly work with that does exactly this. He's never gotten any pushback from it that I've seen.

 

As for the original question. I've had the "dead ball" coached out of me by others (but also when I started, I also got so much training that I wore my hat backwards and tapped my fists together on a full count). Honestly, I now do what my evaluators ask of me. I'm just a soldier in the Charge of the Light Brigade.

[grayhawk]

14 hours ago, 834k3r said:

I said this very thing at a JV game last year. No one said anything (that I could hear, anyway), but I made a mental note of how it sounded. I now say "I have none in the bag," but more importantly I ask "4 balls, please!" when I have two in the bag. That means most of the time I get 2 balls from the dugout. 

🤷

I just say, "Three baseballs, please," or, "Three please," while holding up three fingers.

[concertman1971]

17 hours ago, 834k3r said:

Don't holler "I have no balls" when teams are lackadaisical in bringing baseballs back to you in time during a game.

(sort of)

I like to wait until i have asked 4 times for "3 baseballs please" and then when i have none, i stand there and say nothing while they all look at me.... then i say, "hey guys, we are on the clock. I have no baseballs and have asked repeatedly for baseballs and received none. I do not care if you bring me any, the clock continues to run and we can stand here until time expires. I have also given you all of the baseballs that i brought with me, and that is a total of ZERO. For some reason you must think that balls magically appear in my bag. They don't. All nine of you substitutes who looked at each other and then chose not to go get the balls that went foul, those balls did not magically appear in my ball bag."

Usually at this point one of the coaches gets off his bucket, pulls out ONE ball and throws it to the pitcher. 

Magic.