Please STOP taking one-man, 90ft, low paying games

[concertman1971]

We all know this. But what do we do about it?? A guy text me (i didn't know him) telling me he got my info from a guy who knows a guy who is friends with a guy etc. about working 2 7 inning games one man on a Saturday afternoon. I said, I would be happy to work, but its 2 man, 90/game each. No reply for about 90 minutes. Lo and behold, he asked if we could do the games. We did. 

Please remember, there are more games then there are umpires. They NEED us.

What you permit, you promote. 

Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk

[Aging_Arbiter]

[dumbdumb]

good luck with a plethora of games being worked in the past days gone by with a 2 man crew, but some only paying minimum wage for the 2 umpires, while other areas in the northeast were paying much more reasonable and fair rates, even with their higher cost due to location.

hopefully, if with a dearth of umpires and no way to find more, if a 2 man crew is now getting a rate of $75, the only fair thing for a 1 man would be double the rate or $150, not a chicken manure 1 man rate of 1  1 /2 or time and a half= $112, but the full two man rate of $150. twice the work equals twice the pay, not some discounted fare.

oh yes, and what do some of the umpires who like to go for help just a little or maybe way too often,,, pulled foot, check swing, ball hit off the foot, interference, obstruction, etc etc do when you got nobody to go to. this might actually be the one good thing about a one man, for a few games i have seen when i felt the manager was playing games with asking for help all the time and receiving it. heck yeh the guy may or may not have come off the base too early, but if you have/saw him on the base, unless straightlined and that should happen very very few times a year, he is out, if you saw him off the bag then safe, just like a pitch is ball or strike and you don't go for help.

[The Man in Blue]

What if you are only half as good while doing twice the work?  

I'll take a lower paying game with a partner any day over a solo assignment at double pay.  Then again, I believe umpiring without a partner is the anti-Nike: JUST DON'T DO IT.

Right now, we are seeing games for middle school starting this week.  While I have not seen any solo games looking for an umpire, the rates for these games runs from $55 to $90 depending on the school.  While I don't think every school should pay the same, I will say I find that gap troubling.  The schools offering $55 are getting last ditch effort umpires.  I could see them trying to offer $100 for a solo assignment in an effort to get better quality umpires, but that logic doesn't work.  The better quality umpires are not going to take the solo assignment, and the school will end up paying the lower-tier guy more money to do a worse job by himself.

We can say "but somebody has to work the game" and we would be lying to ourself.  No.  If a school cannot get umpires for a game, there is a reason and the school needs to reschedule.  Somebody doesn't have to do it when it is dangerous, reckless, and a disservice to everybody involved.  Yes, willingly scheduling games solo is dangerous, reckless, and a disservice to everybody involved.

Applause to @concertman1971 for holding the line and setting a good example.

[dumbdumb]

3 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

What if you are only half as good while doing twice the work?  

I'll take a lower paying game with a partner any day over a solo assignment at double pay.  Then again, I believe umpiring without a partner is the anti-Nike: JUST DON'T DO IT.

Right now, we are seeing games for middle school starting this week.  While I have not seen any solo games looking for an umpire, the rates for these games runs from $55 to $90 depending on the school.  While I don't think every school should pay the same, I will say I find that gap troubling.  The schools offering $55 are getting last ditch effort umpires.  I could see them trying to offer $100 for a solo assignment in an effort to get better quality umpires, but that logic doesn't work.  The better quality umpires are not going to take the solo assignment, and the school will end up paying the lower-tier guy more money to do a worse job by himself.

We can say "but somebody has to work the game" and we would be lying to ourself.  No.  If a school cannot get umpires for a game, there is a reason and the school needs to reschedule.  Somebody doesn't have to do it when it is dangerous, reckless, and a disservice to everybody involved.  Yes, willingly scheduling games solo is dangerous, reckless, and a disservice to everybody involved.

Applause to @concertman1971 for holding the line and setting a good example.

i will go with that also.

but, i would like to see fairer pay for the 2 man all over the country or not work at all.

[The Man in Blue]

15 minutes ago, dumbdumb said:

i will go with that also.

but, i would like to see fairer pay for the 2 man all over the country or not work at all.

Agreed and agreed.

I am cutting back my scholastic season schedules (MS in fall, HS in spring) due to life/work balance and personal choices resulting in a heavier work load.  A large swatch of our JV games in the spring will only be paying $60, and that makes it real easy for me to cut those out first.  I don't do it for the pay, but I also don't do it for the pay.  In comparison, I make $75+ game in the summer where there is typically a 1:45 time limit AND I can work several games in one go.

I do not mind working JV games, but the pay disparity between games is getting too large.  I put in the same amount of time studying and learning, the same amount of money into gear, and roughly the same amount of time into the game (JV games do have a 2 hour time limit, but that is rarely a factor) as well as travelling to the game.  I am absorbing the same opportunity cost of not doing something else regardless of whether it is a JV game or a Varsity game.  So why are you paying up to 50% more for a Varsity game?  I understand some distinction (ASSUMING the ASSIGNOR is going to assign according to skill), but not that much.

We can show up and keep working the games for that amount as we complain . . . or we can quit taking those games.  Which one is going to get something done?  

Of course, as I have said before, when one umpire becomes an acceptable norm in my area, I will hang it up altogether.

[grayhawk]

The thing about it is that most times during the off-season, the teams really just want a warm body out there to call balls & strikes and safes & outs. They're mostly just trying to get some work in, and don't care all that much if the zone is good or bad, or if the calls are right or wrong. So they are fine with career freshman ball umpires who will trot out there in their faded and wrinkled uniform, their 20 year old plate shoes and call a horseSH*# zone as long as they can play 7 innings rather than run another practice.

Kudos to Tim for holding firm and getting a well-paying 2 man gig out of this situation. We all hope for more of that, but alas, I fear it's walking 2 mph against a 5 mph stream.

[concertman1971]

Thanks @grayhawk

PS....on the 3 man game at Area Code i didnt get "paid" for, i drank 2 game fees worth of bourbon!!!! 

[The Man in Blue]

First middle school game of the season today.  Well paying, single game for $90.

Until we get there . . . I go up to let the coach and AD know I am there and that my partner got hung up at work and was running late, but would be there by game time.  "We'd like to play a B game, or like 5 innings of one, if that is OK with you guys?"

This is a pet-peeve of mine.  Don't contract me for one game and then spring this on me.  I took this game because it is local and because it was only a single game.  Otherwise, I have been turning down games for this week and next week (school starts and I need to focus more on getting things ready).

I advised I charge extra for games that were not scheduled in advance.  I also said if my partner could not do it, I won't work solo.  Partner arrived and said he could . . . so now we haggle.

Their rate for a full A game + 5 B innings is $130.  We settled on $140 since it wasn't scheduled, and dropped it to 3 innings (only played 2 1/2).  

I do feel a little bad since they are paying so well in the first place.  However, $10 and reduced innings isn't going to kill anybody, but helps reinforce the point: contract us properly in the first place, or, at a minimum, reach out to us ahead of time to propose changing the contract.

 

[grayhawk]

12 hours ago, concertman1971 said:

Thanks @grayhawk

PS....on the 3 man game at Area Code i didnt get "paid" for, i drank 2 game fees worth of bourbon!!!! 

Must have been some top shelf stuff!

[Thatsnotyou]

On 8/14/2024 at 11:27 PM, The Man in Blue said:

First middle school game of the season today.  Well paying, single game for $90.

Until we get there . . . I go up to let the coach and AD know I am there and that my partner got hung up at work and was running late, but would be there by game time.  "We'd like to play a B game, or like 5 innings of one, if that is OK with you guys?"

This is a pet-peeve of mine.  Don't contract me for one game and then spring this on me.  I took this game because it is local and because it was only a single game.  Otherwise, I have been turning down games for this week and next week (school starts and I need to focus more on getting things ready).

I advised I charge extra for games that were not scheduled in advance.  I also said if my partner could not do it, I won't work solo.  Partner arrived and said he could . . . so now we haggle.

Their rate for a full A game + 5 B innings is $130.  We settled on $140 since it wasn't scheduled, and dropped it to 3 innings (only played 2 1/2).  

I do feel a little bad since they are paying so well in the first place.  However, $10 and reduced innings isn't going to kill anybody, but helps reinforce the point: contract us properly in the first place, or, at a minimum, reach out to us ahead of time to propose changing the contract.

 

Wait, 7 = 90 but 12 = 130? 
 

That doesn’t make any sense. Even the 140 for 5 is still low. 

[BigBlue4u]

On 8/15/2024 at 8:24 AM, grayhawk said:

Must have been some top shelf stuff!

Either that, or it must have been a ballbuster of a game!  🙂

 

[The Man in Blue]

6 hours ago, Thatsnotyou said:

Wait, 7 = 90 but 12 = 130? 
 

That doesn’t make any sense. Even the 140 for 5 is still low. 

 

You know . . . that logic of "it's a lower tier game so you should get lower pay even though you have the same cost of gear/registering/time investment."  😣

Middle school games here are ranging from $55 to $90 for a full game this season.  (I find that range concerning.)  Typically the "B-innings" add-on is usually 3 innings of 3 outs or 3 runs.   The point is to get everybody one at bat.

Not sure where the coach got the 5 inning idea from as that is indeed usually considered a full game.  (Though he was wise enough to say it was $50 for the 5 inning idea.  Low, but better than the usual add on price.)

[dumbdumb]

9 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

 

You know . . . that logic of "it's a lower tier game so you should get lower pay even though you have the same cost of gear/registering/time investment."  😣

Middle school games here are ranging from $55 to $90 for a full game this season.  (I find that range concerning.)  Typically the "B-innings" add-on is usually 3 innings of 3 outs or 3 runs.   The point is to get everybody one at bat.

Not sure where the coach got the 5 inning idea from as that is indeed usually considered a full game.  (Though he was wise enough to say it was $50 for the 5 inning idea.  Low, but better than the usual add on price.)

well if it is 7 for $90 my rusty math says that is $13 per inning so 12 should be $156 rather than a $26 discount in thatsnotyou's situation. and yes the real amount is 154.28.

a rate should be per inning anyway and a automatic bonus for the ump, should they be in the lucky situation of not playing the bottom of the last inning.

[The Man in Blue]

Nope … not going to go that “per inning” route.  The math is easy, but the reality doesn’t work.

We have a school here that has decided that is how they are paying everything and they are having a hard time getting umpires.

Only played 3 innings due to the run rule?  $36.

I haven’t gotten confirmation if they are paying extra for extra inning games then.  Nobody will go there to find out.

[MadMax]

23 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

Nope … not going to go that “per inning” route.  The math is easy, but the reality doesn’t work.

Dead right. 

Of all the various amateur baseball game “types”, the hardest to compute or calculate is the non-sanctioned, “B”-level, ambiguously-long, everyone-gets-to-play, no-one-really-cares-about-the-score, is-it-a-scrimmage?-or-a-game? game. 

For all its oversights, shortcomings, and barely-contained-chaos, tournament/travel ball has one key component in its (pay) structure, despite its presence being labeled as “an affront or abomination to/in baseball” – a time limit. These have become so commonplace and typical, the schools here in AZ have adopted time limits, too, for everything-&-anything less than bonafide, sanctioned Varsity. Even the charter schools!  

On 8/14/2024 at 11:27 PM, The Man in Blue said:

I go up to let the coach and AD know I am there and that my partner got hung up at work and was running late, but would be there by game time.  "We'd like to play a B game, or like 5 innings of one, if that is OK with you guys?"

It’s high-time we see amateur rules redefined and codified – lock, stock, and bat barrels – to differentiate between Varsity contests and “everything else”, so as to allow for CBO, “free” defensive exchanges (no substitutions), and a much simpler courtesy / injury runner system. I get it… we want to give these kids competitive reps, more competitive than practice, yet still maintain the integrity of a game. Well, if the score doesn’t really matter beyond who wins at the end of the time limit, or the # of innings reached, then what does it matter which particular player plays where and when? That’s something that just befuddles me about youth (ie. developing) baseball – yes, you can do starter re-entry, but there’s a degree of finality to substitutions. Football, basketball, soccer, volleyball, hockey, lacrosse… water polo… you can freely substitute players in and out. Why is baseball – at the youth scholastic level – so particular? 

Why did you play an “A” game, of X innings, but then have a second separate game, a “B” game, of Y innings?? 

Because you had to start another game anew so that the “new” kids have a chance to be starters!!! 
See the problem? 

 

[The Man in Blue]

“A games” are typically 7th and 8th graders and count toward IESA post-season.

”B” games are usually low level 7th, 6th, and possibly 5th graders in some levels.  They don’t count for anything formal.

Essentially Varsity and JV for middle school.

 

You do have my gears turning though, @MadMax.  We really should have a separate contract or language about those innings since we are NOT using the association rules.

 

[JonnyCat]

6 hours ago, MadMax said:

That’s something that just befuddles me about youth (ie. developing) baseball – yes, you can do starter re-entry, but there’s a degree of finality to substitutions. Football, basketball, soccer, volleyball, hockey, lacrosse… water polo… you can freely substitute players in and out. Why is baseball – at the youth scholastic level – so particular? 

Yep, that drives me SH*#-house, too! 

I can see some pitching restrictions, but position players? WTF, just have free substitution.

[Kevin_K]

15 hours ago, MadMax said:

That’s something that just befuddles me about youth (ie. developing) baseball – yes, you can do starter re-entry, but there’s a degree of finality to substitutions. Football, basketball, soccer, volleyball, hockey, lacrosse… water polo… you can freely substitute players in and out. Why is baseball – at the youth scholastic level – so particular? 

 

Not true for volleyball. Players are locked into a lineup position once they enter and the team is limited in the number of substitutions it can use in each set.

I wouldn't want @MadMax to be one of those guys who perpetuates myths about the rules. 

[MadMax]

1 hour ago, Kevin_K said:

Players are locked into a lineup position once they enter and the team is limited in the number of substitutions it can use in each set.

Well, right. How young does that start? 

And yes, I know about soccer’s rigidity with substitutions, but that doesn’t start until college. NFHS and amateur is near-limitless. 

[Kevin_K]

Substitutions are limited in youth and federation volleyball.

I get this is a tangent on the argument you are making, but the point of underpaid officials permeates almost all sports especially when considering the ways in which costs and charges associated with many skilled contractors (read the trades, auto repairs, etc.) have grown significantly in recent years. 

That some of our brethren undermine fee structures only exacerbates the problems.

[SeeingEyeDog]

Re-structure verbal or e-mailed terms of service at your own risk...

Telling me you want me to work an X number of innings game and that's what we agree on at whatever fee we agreed on and then after I show up telling me, "Oh...yeah...we'd like to play a double header..." or some other manipulation is not how I prefer to do business. Have I accommodated that kind of manipulation? Sure...and so have all of you. Create a checklist of questions you ask anyone who contacts you to book you directly. Age of players? Number of games? Number of innings per games? Ties are ok or do you need a winner? Automatic runner in extra innings? Time limit? No new inning and or drop time? Mercy rules? Run limits per inning and or anything else I need to know to properly administer your game to your specifications?

I'm just bringing it up because these manipulators are typically the same people who don't pay when they say they will and have all kinds of other red flags about how they do business and how they treat their umpires. And I always end the conversation with, "I made an exception and agreed to work another game or more innings after we agreed upon something else. In the future, please have your plans fully firmed before you call me as I will not extend my service again after the terms have been agreed upon. You also have the option of calling someone else..."

~Dawg

[dumbdumb]

be the assignor. i hear it pays well, but of course i have not audited an assignors books either. i hear in many areas they can book themselves for games also. it cant be totally out of the goodness of ones heart to assign and those fees charged to all the umpires and teams add up.

[The Man in Blue]

Just curious, does anybody have a sample contract (or template) that they use?  For all my big talk, I have never actually taken that step.

I've received generic (and practically worthless) contracts from schools before, but they are written from the school's POV and have no real protections for the officials.

[SeeingEyeDog]

10 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

Just curious, does anybody have a sample contract (or template) that they use?  For all my big talk, I have never actually taken that step.

I've received generic (and practically worthless) contracts from schools before, but they are written from the school's POV and have no real protections for the officials.

I do not but, right there is a HUGE flag...

In the general contracting world, it's typically the VENDOR who provides the contract. If a school is providing a contract, that's a bit of a misstep because they are the CLIENT. They aren't breaking any laws or anything, it's just tradition. And of course, no matter who provides the contract, everything is negotiable. If a vendor has clauses in that the client doesn't like and the parties agree, those clauses can de deleted or edited. Life is what we can negotiate.

~Dawg