Lazy kids, passive coaches

[grayhawk]

Something I've noticed working in the off-season is that there is so little hustle! Working college games exclusively during the season has made me accustomed to seeing players hustle in the out to their positions, for the pitcher and catcher to hustle out to get their warm-up pitches in, and for someone to take the catcher's place if he was on the bases to end the inning. Part of this is there is a 2:00 between innings clock so they know their time is limited, but most of this was happening before that due to coaches instilling hustle and discipline as part of the game.

Yesterday, I was working the plate for a 5 Tool tournament and these kids have no hustle coached into them. I noticed the catcher was out and ready but the pitcher was lolly-gagging and then just slowly walked to the mound. I was at the backstop where the site director (and his friend) were sitting and remarked about the pitcher and how there's no hustle and they both said that it's been going on for a while. After 2 pitches, I walked out to the foul line and said, "Two more," and the catcher said, "But he's only had two" and at the same time the pitcher gave me a quizzical look. I looked at the pitcher and told him that he took his sweet time getting out there and we need to get the game moving.

Have others noticed this trend? What the hell is wrong with coaches letting their players be so lazy on the field?

[834k3r]

9 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

Something I've noticed working in the off-season is that there is so little hustle! Working college games exclusively during the season has made me accustomed to seeing players hustle in the out to their positions, for the pitcher and catcher to hustle out to get their warm-up pitches in, and for someone to take the catcher's place if he was on the bases to end the inning. Part of this is there is a 2:00 between innings clock so they know their time is limited, but most of this was happening before that due to coaches instilling hustle and discipline as part of the game.

Yesterday, I was working the plate for a 5 Tool tournament and these kids have no hustle coached into them. I noticed the catcher was out and ready but the pitcher was lolly-gagging and then just slowly walked to the mound. I was at the backstop where the site director (and his friend) were sitting and remarked about the pitcher and how there's no hustle and they both said that it's been going on for a while. After 2 pitches, I walked out to the foul line and said, "Two more," and the catcher said, "But he's only had two" and at the same time the pitcher gave me a quizzical look. I looked at the pitcher and told him that he took his sweet time getting out there and we need to get the game moving.

Have others noticed this trend? What the hell is wrong with coaches letting their players be so lazy on the field?

I've noticed it here for all levels. I nip it in the bud much the same way you do:  curtailing warm-up pitches. They usually get the point. One JV game this year I told the catcher "he's got two" as soon as the catcher arrived at the plate.

[wolfe_man]

Yes, it's bad up to Varsity here too.  Varsity normally is pretty good and the coaches keep them hopping, but below that you may wait a full minute for F2 to get his gear on and out to the plate for warm-ups if he was on base.  No one else covers for him or is ready to help out.  Travel ball is guys dragging all over the field. I can't tell you how many times this past week the pitcher was done warming up and F2 was throwing to second - and the outfielders hadn't even made it to their positions yet! And F1 threw five warm-ups and took his time coming out too!

[BigBlue4u]

I'll tell you where I have noticed it.  The umpires.  I can't count the number of times in HSV games where base umpires walk to their positions after the pregame meeting at home plate.  Or walk from A to B.  Or, the plate umpire walking back to the plate after breaking up a mound meeting.  Now, I do get it.  Guys with their knees gone more or less get a free pass.  But I am talking about younger umpires. 

[834k3r]

5 minutes ago, BigBlue4u said:

I'll tell you where I have noticed it.  The umpires.  I can't count the number of times in HSV games where base umpires walk to their positions after the pregame meeting at home plate.  Or walk from A to B.  Or, the plate umpire walking back to the plate after breaking up a mound meeting.  Now, I do get it.  Guys with their knees gone more or less get a free pass.  But I am talking about younger umpires. 

I try to run everywhere I go--but you've pointed out a glaring hole in my hustle. I'll jog back to the plate from now on after breaking up a mound meeting. I appreciate the insight--seriously.

[BigBlue4u]

1 minute ago, 834k3r said:

I try to run everywhere I go--but you've pointed out a glaring hole in my hustle. I'll jog back to the plate from now on after breaking up a mound meeting. I appreciate the insight--seriously.

Thank you for your kind words.  I have often believed that if the umpires are hustling the teams are usually hustling.  I have, on occasion, told a non-hustling player, "Hey, we're working hard for you, let's go."

[grayhawk]

3 hours ago, 834k3r said:

I try to run everywhere I go--but you've pointed out a glaring hole in my hustle. I'll jog back to the plate from now on after breaking up a mound meeting. I appreciate the insight--seriously.

Something I told a younger umpire that I recently worked with was this:

When it's time to break up the conference on the mound, walk briskly to the mound (with your head up) towards the opposite side of where the coach will be walking off the mound. If he's in the 1B dugout, walk towards the 3B side of the mound and vice versa. Good to be moving opposite from the coach when things break up in case he has some parting shots. When the coach leaves the mound, jog back (beating F2, but setting a good example for him to do the same) to the plate to brush the plate and be ready when F2 is in his position.

This was after observing this young (early 20s) umpire meander towards the mound with his head down to break up the conference and meander back when it was done. 

[umpstu]

10 hours ago, grayhawk said:

Something I've noticed working in the off-season is that there is so little hustle! Working college games exclusively during the season has made me accustomed to seeing players hustle in the out to their positions, for the pitcher and catcher to hustle out to get their warm-up pitches in, and for someone to take the catcher's place if he was on the bases to end the inning. Part of this is there is a 2:00 between innings clock so they know their time is limited, but most of this was happening before that due to coaches instilling hustle and discipline as part of the game.

Yesterday, I was working the plate for a 5 Tool tournament and these kids have no hustle coached into them. I noticed the catcher was out and ready but the pitcher was lolly-gagging and then just slowly walked to the mound. I was at the backstop where the site director (and his friend) were sitting and remarked about the pitcher and how there's no hustle and they both said that it's been going on for a while. After 2 pitches, I walked out to the foul line and said, "Two more," and the catcher said, "But he's only had two" and at the same time the pitcher gave me a quizzical look. I looked at the pitcher and told him that he took his sweet time getting out there and we need to get the game moving.

Have others noticed this trend? What the hell is wrong with coaches letting their players be so lazy on the field?

Just did 2 college summer league games last week and hustling between innings was non existent. Want to say it was because of the extreme heat and humidity, but have noticed it in all of the summer ball I've done and also in a memorial day weekend tournament.

[The Man in Blue]

I'm willing to give a little leeway when it is a hot and humid weekend, but come on.  You would think having time limits on tournament games would get a burr in somebody's butt.

I have long said that you can give a girls' fastpitch softball team 75 minutes and they will play a full 7 innings because they hustle in and out and are ready to go; but you give a baseball team 2 hours, and they will fill every single moment of it, and then bitch when you call the game in the 5th inning.

We set the tone and the pace, though.  We do have time limits in the rules . . . use them.

[BigBlue4u]

19 hours ago, grayhawk said:

When it's time to break up the conference on the mound, walk briskly to the mound (with your head up) towards the opposite side of where the coach will be walking off the mound. If he's in the 1B dugout, walk towards the 3B side of the mound and vice versa. Good to be moving opposite from the coach when things break up in case he has some parting shots.

Good points.  I might add a couple of things to think about.  1) You are right.  Walk out there in a business-like manner.  I've seen some umpires walk out and their body language is telling me they hope the coach is done before they get there.  2) I've always been taught to walk to the back of the mound.  That way, the coach is facing you, not the fans.  So, if he starts to get animated, the fans likely won't see it.  3) When you do hustle back to the plate, make sure the catcher is going with you.  There is nothing quite like getting back to the plate only to discover the catcher is still out there talking with the pitcher.

[Aging_Arbiter]

On 7/15/2024 at 1:32 PM, grayhawk said:

After 2 pitches, I walked out to the foul line and said, "Two more,"

You're generous.  I've told the catcher "balls in" and NOT let them get the "two more".  As we are "chatting a little" during the game, this is an opportunity where I would let F2 know that if he gets his pitcher to hustle out faster, he could get more warm up.  They usually get the hint.

[Thatsnotyou]

On 7/15/2024 at 11:00 PM, The Man in Blue said:

I'm willing to give a little leeway when it is a hot and humid weekend, but come on.  You would think having time limits on tournament games would get a burr in somebody's butt.

I have long said that you can give a girls' fastpitch softball team 75 minutes and they will play a full 7 innings because they hustle in and out and are ready to go; but you give a baseball team 2 hours, and they will fill every single moment of it, and then bitch when you call the game in the 5th inning.

We set the tone and the pace, though.  We do have time limits in the rules . . . use them.

Those time limits are about as enforceable as the MLB time limits before they went to a clock. Pointless. 
 

Teams control the pace much more than umpires. 
 

That needs to be the next rule change - stopwatch, time it, move on. 

[Richvee]

On 7/16/2024 at 4:32 PM, BigBlue4u said:

I've always been taught to walk to the back of the mound. 

I've been taught similar, but not necessarily to the back of the mound. Just get to the side of the mound where the coach can see you head on. 

Another tip I've seen is, when the coach heads out there, take a stance on the foul line opposite to his dugout. This way, if the conference ends before you need to go out, and the coach has some "choice words" for you as he departs, he's yelling it across the field. or detouring from his trip to the dugout making him look like the aggressor and not you.  

On 7/16/2024 at 4:32 PM, BigBlue4u said:

That way, the coach is facing you, not the fans.  So, if he starts to get animated, the fans likely won't see it.

Interesting. I've been told the opposite when there's a confrontation, not necessarily a mound visit, but any confrontation where the coach starts getting a little animated or irate.  Casually walk around him so he turns to face the stands. Let the stands see who's escalating the discussion into a rant/argument, ect. 

[834k3r]

32 minutes ago, Richvee said:

I've been taught similar, but not necessarily to the back of the mound. Just get to the side of the mound where the coach can see you head on. 

Another tip I've seen is, when the coach heads out there, take a stance on the foul line opposite to his dugout. This way, if the conference ends before you need to go out, and the coach has some "choice words" for you as he departs, he's yelling it across the field. or detouring from his trip to the dugout making him look like the aggressor and not you.  

Interesting. I've been told the opposite when there's a confrontation, not necessarily a mound visit, but any confrontation where the coach starts getting a little animated or irate.  Casually walk around him so he turns to face the stands. Let the stands see who's escalating the discussion into a rant/argument, ect. 

All of this precisely matches what I've been taught/trained.

[The Man in Blue]

On 7/19/2024 at 2:27 AM, Thatsnotyou said:

Those time limits are about as enforceable as the MLB time limits before they went to a clock. Pointless. 

They are only pointless as long as we refuse to enforce them.  Start awarding balls and strikes, keep awarding them, and it stops happening.  Point made.

I do like NFHS’s stance that it is not a rule to applied every single time, but a tool to be used when there is an issue.

[Thatsnotyou]

2 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

They are only pointless as long as we refuse to enforce them.  Start awarding balls and strikes, keep awarding them, and it stops happening.  Point made.

I do like NFHS’s stance that it is not a rule to applied every single time, but a tool to be used when there is an issue.

No one is doing that, just as no one did it in MLB. One umpire making a point doesn’t solve anything, it just creates a problem. 
 

We need sweeping enforceable rules, just as MLB introduced. 

[The Man in Blue]

@Thatsnotyou … perhaps saying “Nobody in my area is doing that” would be accurate.  Saying “Nobody is doing it” is not accurate.  It’s not a tool we need to use often, but in my area we are not ashamed to actually enforce the rule.

I won’t say everybody in my area does.  I will say the ones who don’t are generally the ones at the fence yukking it up with the fans or moving at their own pace anyway.

You don’t need a sweeping enforceable rule, you already have an enforceable rule.  You are asking for a mechanism so that you don’t have to be that guy.

Be that guy (when it is needed).  There is your sweeping reform.

[Velho]

4 hours ago, Thatsnotyou said:

No one is doing that, just as no one did it in MLB.

Not sure this is a fair comparison. Did MLB previously have a time limit to pitch rule? FED and LL did/do.

 

[Jay R.]

2 hours ago, Velho said:

Not sure this is a fair comparison. Did MLB previously have a time limit to pitch rule? FED and LL did/do.

Yes, OBR had a pitch time limit that was unenforced until the pitch clock. Really good article on that here: 

https://www.theringer.com/mlb/2023/3/29/23661015/the-forgotten-history-of-the-pitch-clock-in-baseball 

From the article:

Quote

A limit on the time between pitches has been on the books almost since time immemorial—1901, to be specific. That year, the National League (followed in short order by the brand-new American League) adopted this mandate: The umpire shall call a ball on the pitcher each time he delays the game by failing to deliver the ball to the batsman for a longer period than 20 seconds.” More than a century later, in 2006—by which time games were a full hour longer, on average, than they had been in 1901—MLB made an amendment: “When the bases are unoccupied, the pitcher shall deliver the ball to the batter within 12 seconds after he receives the ball.” This year’s 15-second ceiling with the bases empty is less strict than that. In other words, the rule book has called for a clock for most of baseball’s history. The only difference this season is that MLB is belatedly heeding that call in a concerted fashion.

[Richvee]

9 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

I do like NFHS’s stance that it is not a rule to applied every single time, but a tool to be used when there is an issue.

And what does this inevitably lead to?  A 💩show. 
Umpire -“Time, that’s  a ball, you took more than 20 seconds. 
 Coach- “are you kidding me? Their pitcher has been taking twice as long all game and you didn’t say a thing no we’re counting?”  

Yes, it needs to be mandated with timers and specific rules for every situation… like step offs/pickoffs/batters time out requests, defensive time outs, conferences etc. 

Without specific enforcement rules for every situation, you’ll have umpires arbitrarily enforcing 20 second violations and it’s not going to speed up anything, because there’s going to be at least a heated discussion every time it’s randomly applied. 

[Velho]

1 hour ago, Jay R. said:

Yes, OBR had a pitch time limit that was unenforced until the pitch clock.

Learn something new everyday. I went digging and found the language in OBR from 1975 and also disused in Nemec's "Rules of Baseball" (1994).

[Thatsnotyou]

On 7/20/2024 at 12:26 PM, The Man in Blue said:

@Thatsnotyou … perhaps saying “Nobody in my area is doing that” would be accurate.  Saying “Nobody is doing it” is not accurate.  It’s not a tool we need to use often, but in my area we are not ashamed to actually enforce the rule.

I won’t say everybody in my area does.  I will say the ones who don’t are generally the ones at the fence yukking it up with the fans or moving at their own pace anyway.

You don’t need a sweeping enforceable rule, you already have an enforceable rule.  You are asking for a mechanism so that you don’t have to be that guy.

Be that guy (when it is needed).  There is your sweeping reform.

You’re simply missing the forest for the trees here.
 

Again, MLB (and college I’d guess) had “enforceable rules” there too, right? No one did anything about them. We’re in the same spot here. They need to come out with a POE and tell the base guy to carry a stop watch, signal etc. We can’t do as much with that between pitches, but it’ll solve the dead time between innings. If we can do that, it’s a start. 
 

I move the game along as best as possible and am attentive to everything at all times. But I don’t have a stop watch on the field. But I’d love to, if they came up with enforceable rules.
 

Does your area use stopwatches? Your area is the only spot that knows how to handle pace of play? 
 

[834k3r]

On 7/20/2024 at 10:26 AM, The Man in Blue said:

I won’t say everybody in my area does.  I will say the ones who don’t are generally the ones at the fence yukking it up with the fans or moving at their own pace anyway.

This. 1,000,000%. It's so infuriating. What makes it worse in my association is the worst offenders are the guys that have been umpires for decades.

[The Man in Blue]

22 hours ago, Thatsnotyou said:

You’re simply missing the forest for the trees here.
 

Again, MLB (and college I’d guess) had “enforceable rules” there too, right? No one did anything about them. We’re in the same spot here. They need to come out with a POE and tell the base guy to carry a stop watch, signal etc. We can’t do as much with that between pitches, but it’ll solve the dead time between innings. If we can do that, it’s a start. 
 

I move the game along as best as possible and am attentive to everything at all times. But I don’t have a stop watch on the field. But I’d love to, if they came up with enforceable rules.
 

Does your area use stopwatches? Your area is the only spot that knows how to handle pace of play? 
 

Gotta’ say … I’m a bit baffled here.  I can oversimplify and overcomplicate with the best of them … but why are you so adverse to enforcing rules?

MLB chose to not enforce their rule.  That doesn’t mean it didn’t exist.  They have modified it and sank money into making it visible.

NFHS has chosen to offer an interp saying “don’t be a stickler, but use your tools.”  That doesn’t mean the rule doesn’t exist.  You are choosing not to enforce them.  If you aren’t going to bother, why would we bother with the rest of your wish list?

You don’t need any of that.  You need your rulebook, your uniform, and the ability to count to twenty in a reasonably close to one-beat-per-second timing.  You can use your fingers if you like.

One Mississippi, two Mississippi …

Stayin’ alive, stayin’ alive …

One one thousand, two one thousand …

Practice counting against the clock …

Learn 20 seconds of your favorite song … 

 

We aren’t talking about jumping on little Freddy Fastball for starting at 21 seconds instead of 20 seconds.  If that was the case, we would have a clock like the pros do.  We are talking about professionally keeping your amateur game moving.  

If Paul Pro-Prospect, Jr. passes 20 seconds every now and then, not a big deal.  If he’s taking 25-30 every time, we have an issue.

If the defense takes 62 seconds to get out and throw down, no big deal.  If at 70 seconds the catcher is still getting dressed and the King of the Hill coaching staff is still reliving that play from 1977 …  problem.  Penalize.

This isn’t about being punitive.  It is about being practical.

Is my area the only area that knows how to handle pace of play?  No.  I will say we have many umpires who don’t.  That doesn’t mean those of us who do should stop.  No, we don’t use stopwatches, but I have seen guys using their belt timers.  
 

As for other areas … Paging @MadMax … MadMax please pick up the yellow phone.

[Velho]

Viral umpiring

Not proactive in this case but rather passive. Inaction is still an action.