Not my EJ, but... pre-game EJ of a coach at LL Allstars

[Mudisfun]

Crew is starting the plate meeting when they notice the HT F1, F2 and a coach still warming up. One of the crew heads over and tells the coach that they all need to be in the dugout as the plate meeting is happening and the game primaries are about to get started (intro of the kids, etc). Coach tells U1 that he needs to get his 9yo pitcher warmed up, and then tells the kid to keep throwing. U1 tells the coach, again, no. You all need to be in the dugout, now. Again... no, my kid needs to throw. U1 give the coach the options: stop now, go into the dugout and be here for the game, or take the other door and get dumped.

Coach chose door number 2... U1 dumps the coach during the plate meeting. Of course he then heads down the line... nope that does not work. Coach then goes to CF... nope. TD finally has to go out to the guy and get him to leave the field area. He heads out to the parking lot behind the field and sets up on his tail gate, which for the crew was far enough as they were done dealing with this clown.

How dumb do you have to be to get dumped pre-game after being quite literally given 3 opportunities to stay in the game?

[urout17]

I don't do LL games but is there a rule stating no warm-ups for pitchers pre-game?  Seems a little excessive for the umpires to take this stance for 9u.  Again, not knowing the rules, I don't think I would have done this. MHO.

[Jimurray]

Just now, urout17 said:

I don't do LL games but is there a rule stating no warm-ups for pitchers pre-game?  Seems a little excessive for the umpires to take this stance for 9u.  Again, not knowing the rules, I don't think I would have done this. MHO.

I'm scratching my head about this also.

[834k3r]

5 minutes ago, urout17 said:

I don't do LL games but is there a rule stating no warm-ups for pitchers pre-game?  Seems a little excessive for the umpires to take this stance for 9u.  Again, not knowing the rules, I don't think I would have done this. MHO.

My guess is this is a tournament (district/state) game (going through that process myself).

For tournament games, there's a noticeable uptick (at least locally for me, but I presume elsewhere as well) in rules enforcement; things that were allowed (specifically or passively) during the regular season are enforced more strictly. Additionally, there is a sizable section in the LL rule book governing tournament play and administration rules that are different than regular season (for example, during the regular season coaches can warm up pitchers; during tournaments, that's a no-go).

[834k3r]

19 minutes ago, Mudisfun said:

Crew is starting the plate meeting when they notice the HT F1, F2 and a coach still warming up. One of the crew heads over and tells the coach that they all need to be in the dugout as the plate meeting is happening and the game primaries are about to get started (intro of the kids, etc). Coach tells U1 that he needs to get his 9yo pitcher warmed up, and then tells the kid to keep throwing. U1 tells the coach, again, no. You all need to be in the dugout, now. Again... no, my kid needs to throw. U1 give the coach the options: stop now, go into the dugout and be here for the game, or take the other door and get dumped.

Coach chose door number 2... U1 dumps the coach during the plate meeting. Of course he then heads down the line... nope that does not work. Coach then goes to CF... nope. TD finally has to go out to the guy and get him to leave the field area. He heads out to the parking lot behind the field and sets up on his tail gate, which for the crew was far enough as they were done dealing with this clown.

How dumb do you have to be to get dumped pre-game after being quite literally given 3 opportunities to stay in the game?

As many have stated before, we don't eject people--we just usher along those that want to leave.

[Jimurray]

11 minutes ago, 834k3r said:

My guess is this is a tournament (district/state) game (going through that process myself).

For tournament games, there's a noticeable uptick (at least locally for me, but I presume elsewhere as well) in rules enforcement; things that were allowed (specifically or passively) during the regular season are enforced more strictly. Additionally, there is a sizable section in the LL rule book governing tournament play and administration rules that are different than regular season (for example, during the regular season coaches can warm up pitchers; during tournaments, that's a no-go).

I don't know of any rule in the LLGB that would require this. @Mudisfun might have a handout for that particular venue that requires it.

[grayhawk]

It's been a long time since I have done LL, but I don't remember that rule either. Even in HS which requires the players to be in the dugout, pitchers are allowed to be warming up in the bullpen during the plate meeting. I would think LL would defer to player safety over some ridiculous procedural rule.

That said, the coach should have lodged a protest rather than just ignoring the umpire's instruction to get his pitcher and catcher into the dugout. Escalate it to the TD and by the time it's all ironed out, his pitcher would be ready to go.

[834k3r]

20 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

I don't know of any rule in the LLGB that would require this. @Mudisfun might have a handout for that particular venue that requires it.

It's likely a local tournament rule--we have one similar here. VT gets 10 minutes of infield/outfield, then the HT. After that, all players must be in the dugout until after the plate meeting.

[Velho]

I'm other end of the state than @Mudisfun. This is standard for LL, especially at tournament time. The entire team was required to be there an hour before game time to check in and are given prescribed equal time to take infield. No reason to still need to be warming up during the 3-5 minute plate meeting which (in this case) precedes intros, anthem, and pledges (we do it after up here but same theory).

We don't allow teams to take the field until after the plate meeting for administrative and safety reasons. Some umpires enforce this all year so teams are trained, others don't. This adds to the general atmosphere of teams from leagues with lax umpire approaches coming into a more regimented environment.

This coach likely ran wild all year (plus, being 9U may not be very sophisticated as a coach).

 

[834k3r]

2 hours ago, Velho said:

I'm other end of the state than @Mudisfun. This is standard for LL, especially at tournament time. The entire team was required to be there an hour before game time to check in and are given prescribed equal time to take infield. No reason to still need to be warming up during the 3-5 minute plate meeting which (in this case) precedes intros, anthem, and pledges (we do it after up here but same theory).

We don't allow teams to take the field until after the plate meeting for administrative and safety reasons. Some umpires enforce this all year so teams are trained, others don't. This adds to the general atmosphere of teams from leagues with lax umpire approaches coming into a more regimented environment.

This coach likely ran wild all year (plus, being 9U may not be very sophisticated as a coach).

Same here. Our order:

1. Coin flip for home/away
2. VT practice on the field (when complete VT goes to, and must remain in, their dugout)
3. HT practice on the field (when complete HT goes to, and must remain in, their dugout)
4. Umpires arrive and check equipment
5. Coaches announced
6. Rosters announced
7. Pledge of Allegiance or National Anthem
8. Little League Pledge
9. Plate Meeting
10. F1 warmup pitches to F2
11. Play ball!

[Jimurray]

3 hours ago, Velho said:

No reason to still need to be warming up during the 3-5 minute plate meeting which (in this case) precedes intros, anthem, and pledges (we do it after up here but same theory).

 

 

You meant 1-2 minutes, right?

[Mudisfun]

5 hours ago, 834k3r said:

It's likely a local tournament rule--we have one similar here. VT gets 10 minutes of infield/outfield, then the HT. After that, all players must be in the dugout until after the plate meeting.

LL sectionals.

I wasn't there, was just sharing the EJ story from the games we are hosting. Not all of the crews are ours, we have other Districts also within the section covering games. But as others mentioned, the tournament has strict warm up rules per side pre-game. 

@grayhawk your thought may be right, but lets say he protested... and the TD overturned it. Then the other team is going to protest, which then gets a call to WR... then if they do not like the answer, it goes to Williamsport. By the time all this is done, not only will their pitcher be warmed up, it will almost be his bed time!

 

[Velho]

1 hour ago, Jimurray said:

You meant 1-2 minutes, right?

Ideally, yes (I was being generous).

Unless you have a field like my section game Saturday which had high fence bottoms in 5 different spots, a US flag in the field of play, dugout gates on one end and wide open on the other end, an out of play line with three right angles, OF fence banners that could trap a ball, and a gap in the CF fence. All that before we have to reset standards of player, manager, and coach behavior because it's the Section opener and have no idea how their District tournaments were run, not to mention 4 umpires and Managers want to shake hands in and out with everyone (why do they do that?).

I feel pretty good we held it under 4 minutes.

[Coach Carl]

I've been a site director for LL tourney games and I would have considered that my job to keep the teams organized for all the pre-game pageantry.  If the umpires wanted to help, fine, but if they run into trouble I better be nearby to intervene. 

FWIW, I would have talked to the manager and told him he had to get them ready for introductions and give hiim a deadline, "Dave, we need to get the teams in the dugout  for introductions, I'll be ready to start in two minutes."

[ArchAngel72]

Something I would want to know..

 

Why was this kid warming up so late?

Was the original slated pitcher hurt or now ineligible due to throwing in a travel ball league?

I mean yeah there is decorum however I will take warming a pitcher up for arm safety over decorum if this was not the original pitcher and or there were some circumstances as to why he was late doing so.

 

This was LL districts round robin seeding I assume..  Just way too much hard ass there for LL at that level. Imho.. barked up the tree for not a good reason. 

[The Man in Blue]

I don't call LL and don't have LL near me, so this is just me speaking from past work experience (event planning) and observations . . . 

We often point out the fact that we cannot call the youth game the same as MLB because the youth game is more of a straight competition while the pro game is a competition wrapped in an entertainment show.

Teams are not accustomed to having to work on a production schedule.  Since LL is changing their game into a show, they need to do better at explaining to coaches what the run of the show is and why.

An explanation to this coach may have done the trick, even if you had to be the one to provide it.

On the other hand, at this point we shouldn't have to be explaining to teams at any level why they cannot throw balls at us while we are having a plate meeting.  NO, nobody on the field throwing or hitting during the plate meeting.  I don't care if they are on the field (although it sounds as if LL rules say explicitly "in the dugout"), but nothing should be flying, swinging, or otherwise moving in a hazardous manner.  Why do we have to keep telling them this?

[Velho]

All valid points and yes, LL pageantry changes the deeper into the post season we go, and yes TDs should be explaining all this before games start.

At the same time, let's not miss how this may well have went (sorry, I'm a cynic when it comes to 9U coaches):

On 7/15/2024 at 9:43 AM, Mudisfun said:

One of the crew heads over and tells the coach that they all need to be in the dugout as the plate meeting is happening and the game primaries are about to get started (intro of the kids, etc). Coach tells U1 that he needs to get his 9yo pitcher warmed up, and then tells the kid to keep throwing.

I can imagine:

U1: Hey coach, pregame is about to start. We need to get everyone in the dugout. Thanks. (F1 starts to walk towards dugout)

Coach: No. He has to warm up. Johnny, go warm up. (kid confused watching adults argue). Johnny. Go warm up. Now!

Possible U1 didn't say it with such nice words or tone? Of course and, if so, bears some blame.

Possible that response from the coach (even without that last part) was anything but a F'you? Not really.

If coach responded with "oh, crap. We screwed up the timing (or Johnny just got here). How can we get him warm?" and U1 didn't partner, then yeah umpire escalated it. Though, the bullpen may have been in the field of play and only 100 feet from home plate so, even if U1 wanted to work something out, that's a safety issue. (Not to mention the umpire wanting to follow their assignors directions. That is in play at all levels). U1's hands may well have been tied.

 

U1 may also be a jerk. Though I doubt @Mudisfun would be relaying the story if that was the U1's nature.

 

* It wasn't Anthony - the other one, not the teddy bear one - was it? 🤣

[Mudisfun]

27 minutes ago, Velho said:

U1 may also be a jerk. Though I doubt @Mudisfun would be relaying the story if that was the U1's nature.

 

* It wasn't Anthony - the other one, not the teddy bear one - was it? 🤣

One of the nicest and unassuming guys out on the field. I think this was his first in 10 years? He is in no way a hard ass and even last night was still in-awe that the coach decided to comply. And no, not Anthony, although I wouldn't put it past him! 

Someone else mentioned that maybe the coaches did not know the schedule, or whatever. This is the sectionals which means they have gone through the same exact process through the district tournaments, and into sectionals. All of the managers have the site/tournament rules and are reminded of the pre-game schedule every game by the TD at the coin flip for home/away as each side only gets X minutes for their in-field, etc... 

 

[The Man in Blue]

18 minutes ago, Mudisfun said:

 Someone else mentioned that maybe the coaches did not know the schedule, or whatever. This is the sectionals which means they have gone through the same exact process through the district tournaments, and into sectionals. All of the managers have the site/tournament rules and are reminded of the pre-game schedule every game by the TD at the coin flip for home/away as each side only gets X minutes for their in-field, etc... 

 

And all coaches have read the rule book and certify to us that their players' equipment is completely legal . . . 

😉                   

Just saying there is a big difference between should know and knows.

 

I notice @Velho keeps mentioning a bullpen, which may change my opinion.  In my experience, this conversation is always the result of wanting the kid to be throwing in front of the dugout.

[834k3r]

1 hour ago, The Man in Blue said:

And all coaches have read the rule book and certify to us that their players' equipment is completely legal . . . 

😉                   

Just saying there is a big difference between should know and knows.

 

I notice @Velho keeps mentioning a bullpen, which may change my opinion.  In my experience, this conversation is always the result of wanting the kid to be throwing in front of the dugout.

I would expect bullpens to be prolific in these sorts of tournaments. We're having our State championship this weekend and even our po-dunk fields have cordoned off bullpens. They're not formal bullpens (with permanent fencing) but that's what they're there for regardless.

[Velho]

8 minutes ago, 834k3r said:

would expect bullpens to be prolific in these sorts of tournaments.

I expected the same and the few Section games I've done had tight fields. However, my Saturday game showed me otherwise as it was a mediocre setup. The field wasn't enclosed and had a bullpen (singular) that was out of play but with open line of sight to the plate. It didn't even have a scoreboard.

I've come to realize that who is willing to host is likely the deciding factor.

[BigBlue4u]

On 7/15/2024 at 9:43 AM, Mudisfun said:

How dumb do you have to be to get dumped pre-game after being quite literally given 3 opportunities to stay in the game?

I don't think it's dumb so much as it is to try and take control of the game.  And why does he try to do that? Because other umpires, unlike you, let him do it.   Good job!

[Mudisfun]

2 hours ago, BigBlue4u said:

I don't think it's dumb so much as it is to try and take control of the game.  And why does he try to do that? Because other umpires, unlike you, let him do it.   Good job!

Wasn't me, but point taken.

[Aging_Arbiter]

<insert> But we've been doing it this way all year <here>

[smoyer]

I umpire Little League.I would have told him he is needed for plate meeting and let another coach watch the pitcher.The last thing you want to do is throw somebody out.This probaly was a state tournament and if first game plate meeting is very important.