Weird Stealing home question

[JackM]

Curiosity question as there was an argument at my kids 10U baseball game.  

2 Outs.  Batter swings and misses a 2nd strike pitch.  Catcher misses the ball and 3rd base coach yells for batter to run to first.  Batter takes off and Catcher throws to first and the batter is tagged before reaching first and a runner at 3rd runs home.

The umps send the batter who ran to first back to the batters box and the other team argues the runner who came from 3rd should be safe as he stole home.

Ump said no go and kid who went home had to go back to 3rd.

I thought that was the right thing to do as the kids are just 10 but what should be the call be by the rules?

 

[Velho]

24 minutes ago, JackM said:

I thought that was the right thing to do as the kids are just 10 but what should be the call be by the rules?

Answer at 10U: Eject the sh**bird offensive coaches who concocted this scheme. Alternatively, do exact as that umpire did.

Answer at Professional level: run scores. Batter returns to the at bat with 2 strikes.

[834k3r]

1 hour ago, JackM said:

Curiosity question as there was an argument at my kids 10U baseball game.  

2 Outs.  Batter swings and misses a 2nd strike pitch.  Catcher misses the ball and 3rd base coach yells for batter to run to first.  Batter takes off and Catcher throws to first and the batter is tagged before reaching first and a runner at 3rd runs home.

The umps send the batter who ran to first back to the batters box and the other team argues the runner who came from 3rd should be safe as he stole home.

Ump said no go and kid who went home had to go back to 3rd.

I thought that was the right thing to do as the kids are just 10 but what should be the call be by the rules?

 

What was the ruleset?

[JonnyCat]

2 hours ago, JackM said:

Curiosity question as there was an argument at my kids 10U baseball game.  

2 Outs.  Batter swings and misses a 2nd strike pitch.  Catcher misses the ball and 3rd base coach yells for batter to run to first.  Batter takes off and Catcher throws to first and the batter is tagged before reaching first and a runner at 3rd runs home.

The umps send the batter who ran to first back to the batters box and the other team argues the runner who came from 3rd should be safe as he stole home.

Ump said no go and kid who went home had to go back to 3rd.

I thought that was the right thing to do as the kids are just 10 but what should be the call be by the rules?

 

10u shouldn't be using the D3K rule.

But if they are, by rule, the defense should be aware of the count, and not throw to 1B. Proper application of the rule would to score the run, and bring the batter back to the plate with whatever the count is.

However, it is 10u, and if that is what the umpires did, then in a perfect world, the adults would not get worked up over this situation. The rules should be tailored to the age and skill level of the players.

Did I mention that 10u should not be using the D3K rule?

[Jimurray]

43 minutes ago, 834k3r said:

What was the ruleset?

Would it matter?

[Coach Carl]

10 hours ago, Velho said:

Answer at 10U: Eject the sh**bird offensive coaches who concocted this scheme. Alternatively, do exact as that umpire did.

Answer at Professional level: run scores. Batter returns to the at bat with 2 strikes.

Sometimes 10U Coaches get confused too.  Even if it was a planned play, my experience is that many coaches and parents get too wound up by "bush league" tactics.  I always told my teams and their parents not to let these things bother them.  Everything is a learning opportunity.  We can let a player learn that stealing home legally could get his coach ejected or a catcher learn that he doesn't need to be aware of the game situation because the umps will bail him out.  Why perpetuate myths when you can just enforce the rules as written?  

[Velho]

52 minutes ago, Coach Carl said:

I always told my teams and their parents not to let these things bother them.  Everything is a learning opportunity. 

Love it. I'm 100% with you.

 

35 minutes ago, Coach Carl said:

Why perpetuate myths when you can just enforce the rules as written?  

I follow what you're saying and a HPU that let it ride would not be technically wrong.

At that same time, it's a learning opportunity for the offense not to pull nasty tricks at 10U* - something I'd happily explain as I explain and through their response they will let me know if they are in fact sh**birds or it was an honest mistake. Either way, R3 goes back to 3B. Arguing against that remedy is when the coach is opening the door to ejection.

 

* And an example that rules implementation is level dependent. Intentionally doing that is technically INT after all. That would be an out. Though, unless it was repeatedly happening in the same game, I wouldn't go that extreme. Again, implementing the rules to the level of the game.

[maven]

10 hours ago, JonnyCat said:

10u shouldn't be using the D3K rule.

But if they are, by rule, the defense should be aware of the count, and not throw to 1B. Proper application of the rule would to score the run, and bring the batter back to the plate with whatever the count is.

However, it is 10u, and if that is what the umpires did, then in a perfect world, the adults would not get worked up over this situation. The rules should be tailored to the age and skill level of the players.

Did I mention that 10u should not be using the D3K rule?

Agree. At that level, my approach is to call time when the batter takes off. Then I don't have to send anyone back.

If the coach becomes angry and complains that I shouldn't have killed it, I ask — loudly — "Coach, you didn't create a scheme to cheat and get yourself a cheap run in a 10U game did you? Is that what you're teaching these kids?" That usually shuts them up.

If he's stupid enough to admit it, dump him.

[834k3r]

10 hours ago, Jimurray said:

Would it matter?

Potentially. In Little League (given the time of year and players' age, it's certainly plausible), the 10U age group doesn't do anything with D3K--the batter is simply out.

I've worked several games where coaches, players, and spectators alike forget the game isn't travel ball (where it depends upon the tournament/game).

[Mudisfun]

This can also be a league specific local rule.

In the league I was affiliated with, for our Minor B teams (8-9s) we locked 3rd base so that the runner could only score on a ball put into play by the batter, being forced on a walk or HBP, a play being made on another runner (stealing 2nd for instance), or an attempt to put R3 out at third by the defense (pass ball/overthrow to 3rd). In our rules, this scenario would not have allowed R3 to score because it did not meet the criteria as the B/R was not an actual runner AND there is no D3K in our Minor B level.

We implemented this local rule as this allowed teams to put everyone in at pitcher/catcher without worrying about 5 runs being scored on 5 pass balls. They get a chance to try new kids, the kids all get to play all positions and they get some experience. We encouraged ALL teams to run and score on the passed ball, or steal home due to defensive indifference, because come the end of the season at playoffs, the rule went away. Teams just knew in advance that if they scored on the passed ball, they would go back to 3rd but they still played as if it were live and mattered. It worked for us, so that is all that mattered.

[noumpere]

2 hours ago, 834k3r said:

Potentially. In Little League (given the time of year and players' age, it's certainly plausible), the 10U age group doesn't do anything with D3K--the batter is simply out.

 

But this was a D2K play.

[834k3r]

11 minutes ago, noumpere said:

But this was a D2K play.

Fair; missed that in the OP.

[noumpere]

3 hours ago, 834k3r said:

Fair; missed that in the OP.

Easy enough to do.

 

Under LL -- even if this was a D3K situation -- is there a "penalty" for BR running to first?  Does R3's run still count?  (asking because you can count the number of official LL games I worked in my career on one finger)

[Tog Gee]

5 hours ago, maven said:

Agree. At that level, my approach is to call time when the batter takes off. Then I don't have to send anyone back.

Love this. In my local league, I'd love a rule that kills any uncaught non-third strike run attempt for the young ones.

[834k3r]

14 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Under LL -- even if this was a D3K situation -- is there a "penalty" for BR running to first?  Does R3's run still count?

No penalty and the ball remains live, but in the scenario of your question the D3K would be the third out.

[beerguy55]

4 hours ago, Mudisfun said:

In the league I was affiliated with, for our Minor B teams (8-9s) we locked 3rd base so that the runner could only score on a ball put into play by the batter, being forced on a walk or HBP, a play being made on another runner (stealing 2nd for instance), or an attempt to put R3 out at third by the defense (pass ball/overthrow to 3rd).

I wish more leagues would follow this line.

Up until U10 this was very similar to my rule for the teams I coached, but I restricted it to batted balls and forced walks.   Sure, take second and third on all the passed balls, but you're not scoring that way.   I didn't even have signals at this level, so there were no steals, let alone double steals. 

Couldn't give two SH*#s if the other team was doing that...I wasn't.    Strange thing was, my pitchers got good at hitting the mitt and catchers got good at blocking.  It was like knowing that our team wasn't getting any free runs they weren't going to give the other team any.

There were only 5-run limits per inning too. I didn't want five BB/WP/PB runs, I wanted my kids to l learn how to hit...and earn those five runs.   It was pathetic to see other coaches teaching their kids to try to walk.

[Coach Carl]

16 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

It was like knowing that our team wasn't getting any free runs they weren't going to give the other team any.

To me, this is what I'm getting at by not being concerned with the questionable tactics.  I think we have gotten so wrapped up in the pitcher/catcher battle that we tend to look past the very essence of the game:  trying to advance around the bases on offense and trying to prevent it on defense (it's even in the rules under Objectives of the Game).   

Those questionable tacticts get your team's defensive radar up.  Teaching baseball IQ is tough to do in practice when you are so focused on skill development.  But, all the sitches you run into in game play are lessons that pile up in the players' brain.  As they get to the higher levels, it's great to see them play using the lessons learned.   In my Little League, I've watched 12U all-stars blow games because they either didn't play aggressively on the basepaths or got caught napping on defense by their opponents aggressive baserunning.  

[Velho]

1 hour ago, Coach Carl said:

I think we have gotten so wrapped up in the pitcher/catcher battle that we tend to look past the very essence of the game:  trying to advance around the bases on offense and trying to prevent it on defense (it's even in the rules under Objectives of the Game).   

No offense aimed at you but I don't see that as the goal of 10U regular season or travel ball.

All Stars is different (but only to some extent). 9s & 10s All Stars I'm letting this play go. It will be a discussion with the coach between innings though.

As said above, the rules allow it to be done as you say so I'm not going to fault the game being called that way. It's simply a different view.

1 hour ago, Coach Carl said:

In my Little League, I've watched 12U all-stars blow games because they either didn't play aggressively on the basepaths or got caught napping on defense by their opponents aggressive baserunning.  

12s? Heck, that's how my LL Seniors (16U) STATE! game ended last week. 🤣

 

[umpstu]

1995 was my first year umpiring and I did a tournament where one team would constantly run. If somebody walked the coach would have the kid running for second as soon as the kid touched the base. That sort of thing all game long. Those sort of ideas allow for no room for the kids to learn how to play baseball. Was glad to not umpire that team anymore. Winning isn't everything at the 10U level.

[beerguy55]

14 hours ago, Velho said:

No offense aimed at you but I don't see that as the goal of 10U regular season or travel ball.

Sure it is...maybe indirectly, but it is.  Why do you think these "SH*#bird coaches" call these plays at 10U rec ball?

If you ask these kids they'll tell you they want to have fun, and that they're having fun.  But if you ask them when it's the most fun they will almost invariably tell you it's when they win.

They want to win.  Kids at 6, 7, 8 years old playing in the schoolyard, or playing Hungry Hungry Hippos want to WIN*.  At seven years old I didn't play the Game of Life to see how many kids I could accumulate, I played to win.

As a coach at that level we can give them the short term gratification and give them the keys to winning in the easiest manner (ie. look for a walk, and then look for wild pitches on offense...on defense "just throw strikes")...OR, we can teach them how to play, give them fundamental skills, and provide them the tools they need to win in U12, U14, high school and beyond.

To my point, D3K at U10 simply doesn't teach them anything, and it opens the doors for F*#Knut coaches to pull these "trick" plays...all for the win.  Since the rule lets them do this, I simply have an additional job in explaining to my parents why I'm not doing this too, and that in the long run they're kids will be better off (most get it).

 

*there can be a philosophical discussion, even at this age, to what constitutes a "win"...around setting goals and achieving them....some will equate winning to success...others think they're different and not mutually exclusive.

[Velho]

Thanks @beerguy55. I appreacite you taking the time and we're highly aligned in our views.

If I say it differently, imo, the goals of those running the programs shouldn't be win at all cost. The experience and lessons learned is more important than winning or losing. Results oriented thinking is a trap. If you do things right and win, great. If you do things right and lose, oh well, that's life sometimes, but keeping doing things the right way. That's the point of sports.

Winning a game, much less a $3 plastic "state" championship trophy every other weekend, is not the point and, personally, I take that view all the way up into college. My focus is primarily on parents ruining the relationship with their kid but also coaches negatively impacting youth's development. That adults involved. That's who should be thoughtful about the goal.