That's two! That's two! That's two this inning...

[wolfe_man]

14U large tournament semi-finals...

Top 1st.  Two close plays, one goes for HT and one goes for VT. 

Bottom 1st, 1 out - R1 stealing, F2 throws to F6 who makes a long sweeping (waving) tag but I have no definitive tag, so I signal safe.  Def HC comes out yelling: "That's two, that's two, that's two this inning that you've cost us!"  At which point I asked him "What did you say?" to give him a chance to slow down or back out and he continues saying "that's two calls this inning you've cost me", so I ran him.  I was a bit surprised that we were doing this so early in a semi-final game, so I was kind of dumbstruck and didn't say much beyond "What did you say?" and then "You can't do that (keep count and accuse me of trying to cheat), you're gone." as I tossed him.  I never raised my voice and my toss signal was not animated at all, just a general wave towards RF as I said "you're gone".

After I toss him, he said "you can't toss me for that, I only came out to ask a question".   Then I told him he's done, he can't accuse an umpire of trying to cheat him, so he really goes off calling me an effing douche-bag and saying I'm a homer and trying to help them win.   He finally gets it all out and leaves, mouthing off to me the whole way about how bad I am.

He leaves, but shows up about half-way down the RF line a few outs later.  I texted site management and he is made to leave the park, but if he stands straight down the RF line he can be "outside" of the park entrance technically, so he stood down there on this phone the rest of the game.  Every little bit I could hear him talking to a parent down the RF line, but cannot make out what's said so I ignore it.

Great game, walk-off walk with 1 out ends it.  As I'm waiting on my partner to get his water so we can exit the field together, the Def HC comes up to me, as he's re-entering the field, and tells me that I need sensitivity training and that I was terrible.  I just shook my head in bewilderment and walked off.

Of course, I made a report with my assignor about the situation.

What did I do right and what did I do wrong?  I didn't get a chance to say much because coach said all I needed and there really wasn't any way to keep him in the game after he made it personal with the "that's two YOU'VE cost me this inning". 

Thanks in advance.

[Vegas_Ump]

"That's two you owe me!" I heard the coach proclaim.

"You will not be here for a fourth!"

Mike

Las Vegas

[grayhawk]

Sounds like a Daddy ball coach who doesn't know what he can and can't say, and doesn't know you NEVER approach an umpire after a game. 

So far as I can tell, the only thing you did wrong was bring your phone onto the field (I know, It's summer...)

[wolfe_man]

1 hour ago, grayhawk said:

 

So far as I can tell, the only thing you did wrong was bring your phone onto the field (I know, It's summer...)

I know! It was a first, but I had an idea he might be a problem.  The phone was in my cooler bag on the side of the fence behind 1B dugout until the EJ.   Then, I had it on my belt in case of need.

[The Man in Blue]

This is just a personal opinion I have stated before … I don’t like the “What did you say?” interaction from an umpire.  We should not escalate.  My two issues are:

1.) Why are we baiting them into repeating it?

2.) It is very accusatory/stand-offish, IMO.

 

I wouldn’t have asked, I would have just dropped him.

Sadly, it feels as if the phone on the field has become a near necessity at youth tournaments where site administration is bouncing around locations.  

[wolfe_man]

27 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

This is just a personal opinion I have stated before … I don’t like the “What did you say?” interaction from an umpire.  We should not escalate.  My two issues are:

1.) Why are we baiting them into repeating it?

2.) It is very accusatory/stand-offish, IMO.

 

I wouldn’t have asked, I would have just dropped him. 

That’s fair.
To be fully transparent, I probably only got out a ‘Huh? What?’ Before he blew past being able to stay, then I asked what he was saying so I was clear. I didn’t ask it in a baited manner. I was genuinely surprised that we were going there only four outs into the game. 

The funny thing is he tried to say he was coming out to ask a question after I dumped him. For the life of me, I can’t find the question in storming out yelling ‘that’s two, that’s two, etc’.  

It was definitely a daddy ball coach who thought that he was allowed to get away with a lot more than I permitted. 

[JonnyCat]

2 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

This is just a personal opinion I have stated before … I don’t like the “What did you say?” interaction from an umpire.  We should not escalate.  My two issues are:

1.) Why are we baiting them into repeating it?

I'm not always a fan of baiting.

But we bait them because some coaches are Ass-clowns and need to be taught a lesson.

If they're stupid enough to repeat it, then they deserve to get dumped.

It's a teachable moment! 

 

[SeeingEyeDog]

I don't read that question as baiting. Maybe it's how I was raised but when my parents used that technique on me, I knew not to say another word. I did not view that as a "challenge to my boyhood" and responded with the same words. I knew I was being told I stepped over a line. Tone matters of course as that question if asked with a toxic tone could indeed escalate a situation but, again I don't think that was the intention. I've never worked with an umpire who deliberately inflames and escalates situations, though I am certain they exist...

My big concern here was the "administration" by what passed for the site manager...

We're in a vacuum here discussing this in an online forum, we're not on this field working this game in real time so we don't have that perspective. I am also very concerned about the continuing number of ejections in the amateur game where those ejected think it's ok/permissible under the rules to remain within site and sound of the field. Yeah...sure...whatever...the "borders" of the park and where people choose to stand. Something, something...jurisdiction.

Every market is different and perhaps even different parks within the same market are different. My market has some fields managed by a local, private regional park authority and other fields managed by the county park authority each with their own way of doing things. If someone has been ejected from the game and they are not leaving sight and sound of the field, we need to start walking off the field and going home. So, you miss that game fee? So, you're told you're not umpiring for that association or league anymore? Do we want to be working for associations and leagues that don't back us on enforcing "sight and sound"? What else are they not backing us on? I have an excellent association that fully backs all of its umpire brethren. Not everybody does...

~Dawg 

[Velho]

7 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

I don't read that question as baiting [snip] Tone matters of course as that question if asked with a toxic tone could indeed escalate a situation

Agreed that it is all in the tone and emotion it's said with. It can also be said in a "I genuinely didn't hear you" or "do you want to take back what you said?" way. It can also be said in a "say it again. I triple dog dare you" way.

@SeeingEyeDog You're probably too kind a person to say (and mean it) in the third way.

[JSam21]

Removed from sight and sound... I had one that I rodeo clowned at a camp last year. Plate umpire ran him during a mound visit after he went to break it up. I cut him off as the plate umpire was heading back to the plate he continued to walk to the dugout so I stopped at the 45' line. I remained there until he was fully out of site and sound. Just don't start the game until they are gone and if they come back, stop the game again until they leave. 

[maven]

12 hours ago, wolfe_man said:

That’s fair.
To be fully transparent, I probably only got out a ‘Huh? What?’ Before he blew past being able to stay, then I asked what he was saying so I was clear. I didn’t ask it in a baited manner. I was genuinely surprised that we were going there only four outs into the game. 

The funny thing is he tried to say he was coming out to ask a question after I dumped him. For the life of me, I can’t find the question in storming out yelling ‘that’s two, that’s two, etc’.  

It was definitely a daddy ball coach who thought that he was allowed to get away with a lot more than I permitted. 

First inning? That's early to be so hot.

Anyway, I agree with discouraging, "what did you say?" As grayhawk points out, daddy ball coaches don't know what they're allowed to say, so this question won't get processed as a warning. Instead, please consider the following:

1. First, address the first thing, storming out on the field. Put up the stop sign and yell "Stop!" If he runs through that, dump him.
2. If he stops, then say, "Coach, you will not run out here shouting. You may first request time, then come out to ask your question in a normal tone of voice." If he doesn't comply, dump him.
3. If he complies, then have him come out to you. Before his question, say, "Coach, you said 'That's two you've cost us!' Are you accusing me of cheating?" If yes, dump him.
4. If no, then say, "Then we're not having any more of that. Now, you had a question?" And answer his question, preferably in 5 words or fewer. If it's not a question, but a veiled argument, say so.
5. When he thinks he gets to argue with you, say, "Coach, I've answered your question, we're going to resume the game now." If he doesn't return to the dugout immediately, tell him to go there. If he doesn't dump him.

Please note that except for step 1, all of this should be conducted in a normal tone of voice with non-confrontational body language.

[wolfe_man]

Thank you all for the feedback.  I especially appreciate the descriptive ones with outline steps, very good information.  I'll be honest, he shocked me coming out so early and so quickly - that I kind of froze up.  All of the good stuff I had read on here left me in the moment, but I knew enough not to let him come out in that manner, so I dumped him... correctly but a little quickly.  I wish I had followed the above steps instead.  I will learn from it and do better next time in following the steps. 

These are the things that I am really looking forward to learning and experiencing at the Mid-American Clinic this fall.  My local associations have spent zero time instructing umpires on how to handle angry coaches who storm out.  We're all just thrown into the fire to figure it out - or seek out our own help online (like here).   While I am sure I will gather a lot of good feedback and instruction on other techniques to improve my stance, plate work and so on - it's the game management side that I really want to focus on and become a much stronger, more polished umpire. 

Does anyone else ever feel like the more you learn, the more you realize how much you still need to improve?  This is a very humbling profession.

[Maineac]

13 minutes ago, wolfe_man said:

Does anyone else ever feel like the more you learn, the more you realize how much you still need to improve?  This is a very humbling profession.

Absolutely. And I feel like this might be the most important lesson of all. 

[Velho]

14 minutes ago, wolfe_man said:

Does anyone else ever feel like the more you learn, the more you realize how much you still need to improve?  This is a very humbling profession.

👍 And that's what makes it so great

https://thedecisionlab.com/biases/dunning-kruger-effect# 

[JSam21]

21 minutes ago, wolfe_man said:

Does anyone else ever feel like the more you learn, the more you realize how much you still need to improve?  This is a very humbling profession.

This is why I always recommend watching as many games as possible at camp, in the vicinity of the instructors. You will see people make mistakes and you can put it into your pocket so you don't do the same thing, spoiler alert... you probably will. 

You will hear the crew talk about "Learning in Line" a lot. This is a prime example of it. 

[The Man in Blue]

11 hours ago, JonnyCat said:

I'm not always a fan of baiting.

But we bait them because some coaches are Ass-clowns and need to be taught a lesson.

If they're stupid enough to repeat it, then they deserve to get dumped.

It's a teachable moment! 

 

I know this is all YMMV and everybody should do what works for them.  So take my opinion as my opinion.

The fatal flaw in “What did you say?” is illustrated in the bolded line above.  No, no, no.  If they are stupid enough to say it in the first place, they deserve to be dumped.

When a batter draws a line, are you asking him “What did you just do?”  No.  There are some things that are just automatic, and charging on to the field screaming “That’s two!” is one of them … well, two of them.  I guess that was two … two reasons to immediately grant his wish to go home.

You don’t need to ask any questions.  You heard it and you know the clear message he was delivering.

I don’t believe in being trigger happy (I have two stories from this weekend which I will share when I have more time tonight) … but when it is an automatic, it needs to be automatic.

That said, I do agree @wolfe_man, sometimes one is just so stupid or out of left field that it takes us by surprise.

 

[BLarson]

14U.

The coach knows what he can or can't say at this point in baseball.
If I have a coach yelling stuff...I will ask him What did you say?  simply because I can't hear him over at least one of the 8 JBL playing warm up songs or in between music in the quad of fields.

I am waiting for a coach to tell me that's 2 I missed that cost them, because I'd respond "Here's 1 more...."

[Velho]

25 minutes ago, BLarson said:

14U.

The coach knows what he can or can't say at this point in baseball. that his check cleared

FIFY (in humor)

[BLWizzRanger]

'Sight and Sound' usually is me sounding with a sigh as I realize that the coach only moved 30 feet down the line.

This past year I had a head coach go in behind me in the elevated stands to watch near the pressbox.  I wouldn't have known he was there (2 innings later) until he hollered at a player that the assistant coach needed to put in a player in the game.... sigh...

"you can't sit there.  You have to leave"

"grumble, grumble, I paid $800 for the tourney and I can't even watch the game"

Turns out someone let him stay in the previous games with the same behavior.  sigh...

 

[grayhawk]

5 hours ago, BLarson said:

14U.

The coach knows what he can or can't say at this point in baseball.

If many varsity HS coaches don't know, then how can we expect it of most 14U coaches?

[Velho]

1 hour ago, grayhawk said:

If many varsity HS coaches don't know, then how can we expect it of most 14U coaches?

How many of your college coaches know @grayhawk? (what level do you do again?)

[grayhawk]

2 hours ago, Velho said:

How many of your college coaches know @grayhawk? (what level do you do again?)

I'd say about 95% know how to talk to umpires, and a large subset of those know how to get right up to the line without crossing it. Every once in a blue moon, a coach lets his emotions get the best of him. It is an emotional game, after all.

[johnnyg08]

Good job. He needed to go. 

You can stop sign him and when he continues (they usually do) send him. 

Too many umpires let this stuff fester and it turns into a big ol' mess later in the game. 

I had basically the exact same EJ as this last summer. 1st or 2nd inning. Coach was counting on pickoff attempts. Sigh. 

You'll always regret the ones you miss. Well done. 

[bluejerred]

Did this coach/team have build a poor reputation in the tournament before this game?  

 

[dumbdumb]

On 7/15/2024 at 4:14 PM, BLWizzRanger said:

'Sight and Sound' usually is me sounding with a sigh as I realize that the coach only moved 30 feet down the line.

This past year I had a head coach go in behind me in the elevated stands to watch near the pressbox.  I wouldn't have known he was there (2 innings later) until he hollered at a player that the assistant coach needed to put in a player in the game.... sigh...

"you can't sit there.  You have to leave"

"grumble, grumble, I paid $800 for the tourney and I can't even watch the game"

Turns out someone let him stay in the previous games with the same behavior.  sigh...

 

ah just like life - the old ROI (return on investment) coach who is only concerned with one thing in life, and makes sure that you know that is what life is all about, or you are a loser in in the game of life=the ole monetary cheap shot artist.