U1 Rotation—3 man

[MT73]

When is U1 positioned in the B?

[Kevin_K]

R2 less than 2 outs or R2 and R3 less than two outs

[MT73]

Quote

 

Thanks

[grayhawk]

I’m curious to get opinions on WHERE folks set up as U1 in the B position. I’ve tried different starting positions and I set up differently depending on if F4 is covering or if F6 is covering. When F6 is covering, I set up deeper and on a line extending from the LF corner of the bag through the RF corner, about 10 feet from the bag. When F4 is covering, and to ensure I cannot get in his way of a play, I set up still in the dirt, but on a line extending from the RF side of the bag towards 1B.

I prefer to be deep so that I can get on the outside for a back pick from F2, and also still get a great look on the outside where R2 would be diving back to on a pick from F1. Setting up closer to the dirt doesn't provide as good of a look.

[834k3r]

2 hours ago, grayhawk said:

I’m curious to get opinions on WHERE folks set up as U1 in the B position. I’ve tried different starting positions and I set up differently depending on if F4 is covering or if F6 is covering. When F6 is covering, I set up deeper and on a line extending from the LF corner of the bag through the RF corner, about 10 feet from the bag. When F4 is covering, and to ensure I cannot get in his way of a play, I set up still in the dirt, but on a line extending from the RF side of the bag towards 1B.

I prefer to be deep so that I can get on the outside for a back pick from F2, and also still get a great look on the outside where R2 would be diving back to on a pick from F1. Setting up closer to the dirt doesn't provide as good of a look.

97.62983% of my games are in a two-man crew.

After experimenting last season with setting up in very deep B (on the infield fringe), I found the "book" setup in B works better for me. Last year, I found I actually had to move at an angle (roughly towards the 45' line on 1BL) to avoid getting straightlined for plays at 1B. This year I moved to the "book answer" B position; for throws to 2B from F1 or F2, I'll pivot and take a step or two after letting the ball clear me. For pickoffs to 1B, I can take a few more steps directly to towards the bag and have a good look.

Ultimately I found the advantage of being positioned nearer to 2B (as I was last year) not worth the cost of a less than ideal position for plays at 1B.

In a three-man crew, a U1 could be closer to 2B when in B with fewer issues because obviously there is zero chance of a pickoff or backpick to 1B.

[grayhawk]

3 hours ago, 834k3r said:

97.62983% of my games are in a two-man crew.

After experimenting last season with setting up in very deep B (on the infield fringe), I found the "book" setup in B works better for me. Last year, I found I actually had to move at an angle (roughly towards the 45' line on 1BL) to avoid getting straightlined for plays at 1B. This year I moved to the "book answer" B position; for throws to 2B from F1 or F2, I'll pivot and take a step or two after letting the ball clear me. For pickoffs to 1B, I can take a few more steps directly to towards the bag and have a good look.

Ultimately I found the advantage of being positioned nearer to 2B (as I was last year) not worth the cost of a less than ideal position for plays at 1B.

In a three-man crew, a U1 could be closer to 2B when in B with fewer issues because obviously there is zero chance of a pickoff or backpick to 1B.

In the 2-man games I work, I position myself in regular B with R1 or R1/R3, though I do work slightly deeper when there's a big lefty at the plate. I'll take a slightly worse angle on pickoffs at 1B over getting smoked.

In 3-man, I'm more than comfortable working deep and on grounders to the right side, it only takes a few steps to get a good angle. On grounders to the left side, I'm already deep and it's just a few steps "back and to the left" to get a great angle.

[Jimurray]

18 hours ago, 834k3r said:

This year I moved to the "book answer" B position; for throws to 2B from F1 or F2, I'll pivot and take a step or two after letting the ball clear me. For pickoffs to 1B, I can take a few more steps directly to towards the bag and have a good look.

 

If you are agile you can be stepping back as the throw comes and pivot with the throw and be near the grass line for the play.

[MadMax]

20 hours ago, 834k3r said:

97.62983% of my games are in a two-man crew.

So… you’re saying that 1.37017% of your games are 3-man, and 1% are solo? 

22 hours ago, grayhawk said:

I’m curious to get opinions on WHERE folks set up as U1 in the B position.

The bulk of the challenge on teaching U1-in-3MC positioning isn’t so much a play (attempt) at 2B, it’s more about the play at 1B and/or who has BR’s touch and potential back-pick into 1B on a hit. The propensity of a U1 to IP right on the 2B-1B baseline, or even just past that towards the outfield (thus called B-beyond) is understandable, but even with that (good) intention, amateur U1s often handicap themselves on plays at 1B, fly balls to RF (are you out? or in?), and fly balls down the left field line that take U3 out, especially far enough that R2 is tagging to advance on, and/or R3 tags and feints an advance… and, invariably, there’s a play upon R3 (diving back in) at 3B. 
Why is this an issue? Because amateur umpires tend to default to “staying put” and ball watching. Ya just can’t, and hope to be (consistently) successful in 3-man. Pre-pitch preparedness is essential; you have to assess and prepare for plays, and then alertly and adroitly react to them. Ya can’t just stand there, next to 2B, watch a play unfold around you, take a few hastened steps towards that base (3B or 1B) and then, once the play is over, tap your chest a few times in the quasi-universal apology of “sorry, guys, my bad”. 

So, I say all this to say – where exactly you position yourself isn’t important so long as you are aware of where you need to be to react effectively to a play. 

Me? My IP is on the grass/dirt line (infield side)… so B-deep, in the strictest sense. 

[JSam21]

1 hour ago, MadMax said:

So… you’re saying that 1.37017% of your games are 3-man, and 1% are solo? 

The bulk of the challenge on teaching U1-in-3MC positioning isn’t so much a play (attempt) at 2B, it’s more about the play at 1B and/or who has BR’s touch and potential back-pick into 1B on a hit. The propensity of a U1 to IP right on the 2B-1B baseline, or even just past that towards the outfield (thus called B-beyond) is understandable, but even with that (good) intention, amateur U1s often handicap themselves on plays at 1B, fly balls to RF (are you out? or in?), and fly balls down the left field line that take U3 out, especially far enough that R2 is tagging to advance on, and/or R3 tags and feints an advance… and, invariably, there’s a play upon R3 (diving back in) at 3B. 
Why is this an issue? Because amateur umpires tend to default to “staying put” and ball watching. Ya just can’t, and hope to be (consistently) successful in 3-man. Pre-pitch preparedness is essential; you have to assess and prepare for plays, and then alertly and adroitly react to them. Ya can’t just stand there, next to 2B, watch a play unfold around you, take a few hastened steps towards that base (3B or 1B) and then, once the play is over, tap your chest a few times in the quasi-universal apology of “sorry, guys, my bad”. 

So, I say all this to say – where exactly you position yourself isn’t important so long as you are aware of where you need to be to react effectively to a play. 

Me? My IP is on the grass/dirt line (infield side)… so B-deep, in the strictest sense. 

 

Starting position for me is on the back side of the line between 1st and 2nd. 

As U1 starting in Deep B, balls that stay within the infield, the determining factor for my initial movements is where the throw will originate from. If the throw is going to originate from the 3rd base side of 2nd base, I'm moving to my left into the dirt to establish my angle for the play at first. If it is going to come from the 1st base side of 2nd base, I move into the working area inside.

For most fly balls that no one is going out on, as soon as the ball goes up, I'm moving inside to the working area to line up the tag at 2nd. Reading ball down in the gap, eyes immediately going to BR to pick them up. 

[834k3r]

3 hours ago, MadMax said:

So… you’re saying that 1.37017% of your games are 3-man, and 1% are solo? 

Roughly. 🤪

Next year I won't be doing any solo (60' fields) games, and I anticipate doing more 3-man.

3 hours ago, MadMax said:

...amateur umpires tend to default to “staying put” and ball watching. Ya just can’t, and hope to be (consistently) successful in 3-man. Pre-pitch preparedness is essential; you have to assess and prepare for plays, and then alertly and adroitly react to them. Ya can’t just stand there, next to 2B, watch a play unfold around you, take a few hastened steps towards that base (3B or 1B) and then, once the play is over, tap your chest a few times in the quasi-universal apology of “sorry, guys, my bad”. 

So, I say all this to say – where exactly you position yourself isn’t important so long as you are aware of where you need to be to react effectively to a play.

When I realized this (I was ball watching, big time--a bad habit kept in my repertoire by working LL games) in my own actions/practicing of The Craft, it was an epiphany. By that I mean it became much easier to get better looks at plays when I thought about moving constantly. I know experienced umpires will respond to that statement with a resounding, "DUH!"; I will suggest inexperienced umpires (at least when I was inexperienced) are taught to move, but the games move too quickly for them to think about moving on top of all the other things that are going on.

I'm much better about moving now without consciously thinking about it, but I still struggle with it at times.

[grayhawk]

42 minutes ago, 834k3r said:

By that I mean it became much easier to get better looks at plays when I thought about moving constantly. I know experienced umpires will respond to that statement with a resounding, "DUH!"; I will suggest inexperienced umpires (at least when I was inexperienced) are taught to move, but the games move too quickly for them to think about moving on top of all the other things that are going on.

I'm much better about moving now without consciously thinking about it, but I still struggle with it at times.

Moving "with a purpose" is the key. Most umpires who are new to 3-man are guilty of happy feet, especially when they're working as U1. The hardest part of working 3-man is fly ball reads. It is crucial to working together as a crew and how we are rotating. As PU, it drives me crazy when U1 goes out on an obvious gapper to right center because they just got happy feet rather than taking the immense amount of time we have to PAUSE, READ and react in the 3 umpire system.

[Richvee]

23 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

umpires who are new to 3-man are guilty of happy feet, especially when they're working as U1.

That’s me. 🙋‍♂️🙋‍♂️

I just don’t get enough reps. 

[Kevin_K]

1 hour ago, grayhawk said:

Most umpires who are new to 3-man are guilty of happy feet, especially when they're working as U1. 

I used to be one of these guys. The last two seasons I have focused on pause, read, and react by not watching the ball. I find it easier to get to the right place at the right time now.

[kylehutson]

I was fairly-well experienced in the 3-umpire system when I realized that you don't watch the ball. You read the fielder. It's still not automatic for me (probably ~10% of my games are 3-man), but I'm getting better.

(And after this weekend the rest of my schedule is post-season, which means all 3-man)

[grayhawk]

1 minute ago, kylehutson said:

I was fairly-well experienced in the 3-umpire system when I realized that you don't watch the ball. You read the fielder. It's still not automatic for me (probably ~10% of my games are 3-man), but I'm getting better.

(And after this weekend the rest of my schedule is post-season, which means all 3-man)

Or, read your PARTNER. Something most folks that don't work much 3-man are not used to doing.

[kylehutson]

On 7/13/2024 at 12:05 AM, grayhawk said:

Or, read your PARTNER. Something most folks that don't work much 3-man are not used to doing.

Yes - I was referring to balls in my coverage area. For balls in your partner's coverage area, you're absolutely correct.

[834k3r]

On 7/12/2024 at 4:41 PM, Richvee said:

That’s me. 🙋‍♂️🙋‍♂️

I just don’t get enough reps. 

[JSam21]

On 7/13/2024 at 12:05 AM, grayhawk said:

Or, read your PARTNER. Something most folks that don't work much 3-man are not used to doing.

Well, we should already be doing that if we are working the two umpire system properly. With no one on and fly balls into U1s coverage area. I think a lot of people miss that. 

We need to understand that working the 3 umpire system, is just taking principles of the 2 umpire system and adding another person to it. We should be reading our partner when working the 2 umpire system.

In the 3 umpire system we are working the 2 umpire system as a default, until we can work with all 3 umpires on the infield. Example: No one on and flyball to U3's coverage area, U1 should be coming inside immediately (like the 2 umpire system), in order to protect against U3 going out. Once U1 reads that U3 isn't going out on the ball, they bounce back under the base and get back outside. 

Same starting situation, but fly ball into U1's coverage area, PU should be moving up the first base line to take the touch of first by the BR (regardless) and to take any plays back into first base (in the 2 umpire system it would be taking the BR all the way around to 3rd) should U1 go out.