Am I out of line for tossing manager/player?

[BlueClue]

Hi all, I recently had an "interesting" game that I wanted to get your opinions on.

18U tournament using OBR, I'm on the bases and my partner has been hearing it from both dugouts a fair amount. Top 5, R2, 2 Outs BR hits a slow roller to F1 who throws to first and I call BR safe, immediately afterwards F3 throws home, as R2 rounded 3rd and was on his way home. After what seemed like an eternity (in reality, probably around 5-ish seconds), m y partner gives a very nonchalant out call, and the visiting team (who had travelled 10 hours for this tournament, so neither of us had any prior history with them) goes ballistic. Both the 3B coach and the manager come storming towards my partner at home plate, as soon as I see both coaches charging towards my partner, I sprint down to wrangle the 3B coach out of there. As soon as I get there and manage to get the AC out of there, the manager starts to scream "THAT'S F***ING TERRIBLE! YOU'RE F***ING AWFUL! YOU'RE F***ING HORSES***". At this point, I'm expecting my partner to toss him, but he doesn't, at which point I toss him as he says "YOU GUYS HAVE BEEN F***ING US ALL GAME". The manager then continues repeating the same expletives for another 15 seconds or so, at which my partner finally opens says something; "Coach, if you keep saying that I will have to eject you" which the manager responds with "HE ALREADY F***ING DID" while pointing at me. The manager then turns to me and says "YOU'VE BEEN F***ING TERRIBLE ALL GAME TOO" to which I reply "Thanks (manager's name), I appreciate it" (I know I shouldn't have responded in that way, I got caught up in the moment).

Fast forward to Top 7, the batter gets called on a low breaking ball and the visiting teams dugout starts barking. 2 pitches later, my partner calls another low breaking ball and the VT dugout starts losing it, screaming profanities from the dugout. After I hear "THAT'S F***ING TERRIBLE! YOU'RE F***ING AWFUL" multiple times from a player I had previously warned earlier in the game, I call time and eject the offending player. The 1B coach then comes to me to argue his players ejection, at which point my partner comes up. The 1B coach then turns his attention to my partner to argue the previous pitches, at which point my partner then keeps repeating "It crossed at the knees" several times. Finally, the 1B coach leaves, and my partner says to me "You shouldn't have ejected him so quickly", to which I say "I disagree" and he returns to his position.

Following the game, my partner again tries to say that I ejected them too quickly, at which point I politely disagreed (no joke, I disagreed politely even though I was fuming inside). My question to all of you is: Was I too quick to eject? Was I out of line? The local guys I work with who were watching the game are saying that the ejections were justified, and that I was protecting my partner, however I can't get the thought that I may have stepped out of line and on my partners shoes in this situation, so I figured I'd get your opinions. Any advice or comments are appreciated!

[grayhawk]

You were spot on, and your partner was weak. When they refuse to take out the trash, we have to step in, otherwise the garbage really starts to pile up. Well done. 
 

And the, “Thanks, I appreciate it,” is not out of line. A simple, “Okay” is my preferred response in those situations. Pretty similar. 

[ArchAngel72]

Nip it in the bud to keep the crap under control. If you dont it will be the circus clowns running the show, Not you.

 

[JonnyCat]

1 hour ago, grayhawk said:

When they refuse to take out the trash, we have to step in, otherwise the garbage really starts to pile up.

That's a good one. I'm going to add that to my repertoire.

I also agree, weak partners are the bane of the umpiring avocation. Don't ever kick the can down the road. I guarantee you those coaches have been getting away with this behavior for a long time because other umpires have not been taking care of business.

[JonnyCat]

7 hours ago, BlueClue said:

Was I too quick to eject? Was I out of line? The local guys I work with who were watching the game are saying that the ejections were justified, and that I was protecting my partner, however I can't get the thought that I may have stepped out of line and on my partners shoes in this situation, so I figured I'd get your opinions. Any advice or comments are appreciated!

No, you were not too quick, and it sounds like you could have got some other ejections as well, maybe some of the AC's.

Like others have said, if your partner doesn't handle business, then if you don't step in, the game can get out of hand quickly.

Don't let a weak partner influence your decisions. From what you've described, he probably needs some better training in the areas of mechanics and game management. If he was hearing it a fair amount of the game, either his zone was not very good, or he was letting whiners walk all over him. Either way, he needs to work on his game.

You did the right thing. Never stop analyzing your game, and never stop trying to improve!

[LC Ump]

Coaches' comments were profane, personal and persistent. Two out of three qualifies for an ejection. They were three for three.

[834k3r]

55 minutes ago, LC Ump said:

Coaches' comments were profane, personal and persistent. Two out of three qualifies for an ejection. They were three for three.

One out of three qualifies in my book.

[The Man in Blue]

Add me to the group saying, "Too quick?  You didn't do enough." 

As has been said, we CANNOT allow this to go on as it will quickly get out of hand.  Unless your goal is to end up on TikTok or the local/national news for a physical confrontation, shut this SH*# down yesterday.

If they had been riding him all game, the AC charging was enough to dump him right then and there.  The HC might get some leeway to come out, but the AC doesn't get to join him, let alone charge at him.

Once the coach used the two magic words, he had removed himself from the game.  The "Y' word is the magic one, but at 18u we are still PG-13.  You might get one F-bomb assuming it isn't referring to the act or the umpire.

The dugout?  Nope, none of that whatsoever.  Start shooting monkeys in the cage once the first one happens after they have been told (not that they should be told) and keep shooting monkeys until the cage is empty or they fall in line. 

1BC . . . OK if he wants to speak out for his player, but as soon as he turned his attention and comments to PU . . . another monkey. 

Followed by . . . 

 

Crap like "Coach, if you keep saying that I will have to eject you" has no place in our vernacular.  Don't make weak candy coated threats, especially when you have no intention of following through on them.  

Don't become the frog at a frog boil.  Take care of business.

 

[Baseballer]

Definitely not quick. You're partner had no control of the game. You had to step in. Also anything comes out of a dugout like that, they are done. That's ridiculous what that team did.

[johnnyg08]

On 7/5/2024 at 2:46 AM, BlueClue said:

Was I too quick to eject?

no.

[Kevin_K]

I have had an unreasonable number of under performing partners this year which has placed me in some situations where I have had to serve double duty because they were unwilling or incapable of handling the game management side of things.

My only ejection this year was a result of this kind of situation. When the 1BC disagreed with a call on a potential pulled foot and I had no additional information to help my partner, 1BC was issued an all expenses paid trip on the parking lot express because he:

• 1. Continued arguing the call after the crew got together;
• 2. Blew through a warning sign and "That's enough! Stop!"
• 3. Left his position in the 1B box; and
• 4. Made it personal through his choice of "You're horrible!" which could have been directed at me or my partner - I couldn't tell nor did I care.

I ejected him. This was a state playoff game. My partner was a second year umpire who was way out of his element. He didn't need to hear it and I wasn't going to allow it. My partner was clearly not ready for the atmosphere, but he was on the field and we umpire as a crew.

As I was typing this, another thought came up. Would any of us allow our partner to make a call that clearly was wrong (other than judgment calls) without making some attempt to fix the error? Should we consider game management the same way? Getting things right has been a focus for some time now. Does game management fall into getting things right? It seems as though the partner in the OP struggled with game management. Do we have an obligation to get that right?

Just some thoughts. YMMV.

[JonnyCat]

1 hour ago, Kevin_K said:

As I was typing this, another thought came up. Would any of us allow our partner to make a call that clearly was wrong (other than judgment calls) without making some attempt to fix the error? Should we consider game management the same way? Getting things right has been a focus for some time now. Does game management fall into getting things right? It seems as though the partner in the OP struggled with game management. Do we have an obligation to get that right?

I think so. I wouldn't let an obvious miss go especially with a overwhelmed partner, or really with any partner. You're right, other than judgement calls, if it's something egregious like a wrong base award, or other things along those lines, I'm going to step right in and talk to my partner. Why wait for the coach to come out, just fix it.

Out HS association has had former MLB umpire Mike Winters help instruct in the classroom and clinics. He once told us to do that exact same thing. He said, other than judgement calls, if a partner screws something up, don't wait to fix it, do it right away.

Game management is one aspect of the game that is often under taught, and hard for many an umpire to master. I've seen so many seasoned umpires with horrible game management, as if it's their first year. It's something that many don't work on, mainly because how you handle situations is tied to your personality. If someone has poor communication skills and struggles with conflict management and have no people skills, then generally they will struggle with game management, no matter the level of game experience.

Curious as to why the assignor put such a newbie on seemingly a very important game? Could it be because of the shortage of sports officials that availability comes before ability now? In my area, that is becoming more of the norm.

 

 

 

 

[Kevin_K]

1 hour ago, JonnyCat said:

Curious as to why the assignor put such a newbie on seemingly a very important game? Could it be because of the shortage of sports officials that availability comes before ability now? In my area, that is becoming more of the norm.

I dont know, especially when @Richvee was sitting at home, less than a mile from the game site.

We had a new assignor (again) this year and there were a lot of things that didn't seem to make a lot of sense to me, including new umpires on varsity baseball games, games not covered, difficulty in reaching the assignor, and umpires on the same teams games 3x consecutively.

I get there are a lot of games and fewer umpires, but if one is new to assigning in a given area it wouldn't be unreasonable for the assignor to get to know not only the caliber of ball played at each school, but also for them to get to know the people available and their various skill sets so the right people are put in places to have successfully officiated baseball games.

[StatsUmp]

On 7/5/2024 at 10:58 AM, JonnyCat said:

Don't let a weak partner influence your decisions. From what you've described, he probably needs some better training in the areas of mechanics and game management.

And one hopes this person is amenable to constructive feedback and tips for improving game management. It's frustrating when a partner receives such feedback but doesn't use it.

As for @BlueClue's scenario, without being too repetitive:

• You didn't eject too quickly. I'm not going to say it was too slow because you ejected once it was clear your partner wasn't going to take care of business when it was desperately needed to keep control. Just because your partner might have weak game management skills, it's not carte blanche for coaches to behave as poorly as they did. You weren't out of line and you definitely weren't too trigger happy here even if your partner thought otherwise.
• Any coach using profanity during an event I officiate for HS or younger athletes will not do so without consequence. The combination of multiple F-bombs with personal attacks and prolonged arguing in the OP increases the likelihood the coach won't be around for the end of the game.
• The Thanks comment in response to the coach telling you how he felt about your performance wasn't that out of line, either. As much as I try to ignore those comments, I'll admit to answering as you did on one or two occasions.

3 hours ago, Kevin_K said:

I ejected him. This was a state playoff game. My partner was a second year umpire who was way out of his element. He didn't need to hear it and I wasn't going to allow it. My partner was clearly not ready for the atmosphere, but he was on the field and we umpire as a crew.

I'm not ashamed to admit that I would not have been state tournament material in my second year in each of the sports I officiate. Still, you're right that you and your partner are a crew for better or worse and working together and having a partner's back is important. I know I appreciated the partner(s) that had my back in my early years and I try to do the same for my partners - especially the newer ones.

 

1 hour ago, JonnyCat said:

You're right, other than judgement calls, if it's something egregious like a wrong base award, or other things along those lines, I'm going to step right in and talk to my partner. Why wait for the coach to come out, just fix it.

I had a partner kick an IFF call and want to send the runners back to their previous base even though they properly advanced when the ball dropped uncaught. I got him to huddle with me and I was able to talk him through the play and the rule. That was enough for to him realize 💡 the runners advanced properly and shouldn't be sent back. This is a good example of what @JonnyCat is talking about.

[Richvee]

5 hours ago, Kevin_K said:

I dont know, especially when @Richvee was sitting at home, less than a mile from the game site.

Me, the day of @Kevin_K ‘s game. 

[Thatsnotyou]

Your partner is type of guy that brags about never having ejected someone in their 20 years of umpiring. 
 

To which I always ask them how many they’ve missed.

[SeeingEyeDog]

On 7/5/2024 at 3:46 AM, BlueClue said:

18U tournament using OBR, I'm on the bases and my partner has been hearing it from both dugouts a fair amount.

I don't know what a "fair amount" is but, you thought enough of it to include it in your opening statement. It's very difficult working with a partner who either has more flexible standards than you when it comes to game management or two has been intimidated by coaches and players and is unable to administer discipline. If it's a young or inexperienced partner on the plate and they are getting verbally abused, I will not hesitate to step in and apply discipline as needed, which we will then review in post-game. Most young and inexperienced umpires simply need to see game administration applied in a game situation in order to really learn how it's done. If my partner on the plate is not young nor inexperienced, I will grab them between innings and ask them if they are hearing the abuse. If they say no, I encourage them to listen to it and address it. If they say yes, I encourage them to address it.

It has taken me many, many years and games and situations to understand this which is why I share it so much here in the hopes that someone else will not have to wonder when and how to deliver game administration and discipline. What we permit, we promote. The longer you allow things to go unaddressed, the worse and worse they will become and that is EXACTLY what happened in your game. As a crew you ABSOLUTELY did the right thing, no question...you just needed to have done it SOONER. As soon as you hear or see something, address it.

Check with your association and your league leadership to make sure you have a complete understanding of how they want their games administered. FED games, generally we do everything we can to keep the coaches and players in the game, of course magic words and actions require an immediate ejection. Coaches we issue verbal warnings, written warnings, dugout restrictions and then eject. Players we warn and then eject.

OBR games, the umpires have those multiple warning shackles removed...for the most part it's warn and then eject for the second infraction for both players and coaches. In closing, whether FED, OBR or some other rule set...let the ejection report write itself and just give them the facts. The coach did or said this, and the umpire issued a warning. The coach did or said this again, and the umpire ejected them. If a Coach simply asks where a pitch was for example and you eject them for that? You'll have difficulty explaining that ejection.

~Dawg

[BigBlue4u]

On 7/5/2024 at 12:46 AM, BlueClue said:

As soon as I get there and manage to get the AC out of there, the manager starts to scream "THAT'S F***ING TERRIBLE! YOU'RE F***ING AWFUL! YOU'RE F***ING HORSES***". At this point, I'm expecting my partner to toss him, but he doesn't,

And you are asking people about running the coach?  Your partner's reluctance about ejecting the coach should tell you all you need to know about your partner.  A couple of other notes.  Right or wrong, I have always been taught not to run to a developing situation.  The reasoning is that, by running, you are escalating the situation.  Walking also gives you more time to think about what you are going to do once you get there. Also, if you are getting a lot of grief from the dugout, you always have the option of ejecting the coach/manager for not controlling his team. 

[Vegas_Ump]

Hey Blue!  Call 'em the same for both teams!

Bango!  He's challenging the integrity of the officials.  Automatic!  No fuzz on that peach!

Mike

Las Vegas