Ejecting coach who pays you

[LakeAmour]

15U travel, Fed rules. 

I umpire on the side, maybe 8-12 games per year. Mostly filling in last minute when asked since I'm known in the area as an easy going guy who know how to ump baseball.

Upstart travel league called in desperate need of a field ump for a double header. No problem, I'll be there.

Plate meeting went just fine. The HTHC says come see him after the double header to get paid. 

After the plate meeting, the other ump (who I know well) said, "full disclosure, that's the nicest that guy will be all day. Watch what happens." 

And sure enough, from the first pitch the wheels come off. Chirping from the dugout on every pitch, every call, non-stop for 5 hours. The third base coach was even worse. It was endlessly persistent. Every pitch was a balk, every out was safe, every safe was out, etc etc. 

Multiple times the HTHC and/or 3b coach came onto the field to get in my face to scream objections to calls. It was surreal and at times completely out of control. Per 3-3-1 we were well within our rights to eject both the hthc and 3b coach. But... The guy has our money! We did limit them to the dugout in the final inning of game 2 but too late at that point.

I don't care about getting paid as I have a lucrative career, but the other umpire really needed this money. So we suffered through it. 

In hindsight I wish we would have tossed them both and dealt with the ramifications. But I didn't want my partner to lose out on the cash. 

I told the HTHC to never call me again and he gave a very soft apology that wasn't really an apology. 

Any advice as to what to do better in this situation? Ask for the money upfront? 

I had no idea what I was getting into and clearly the league lacks umpires because of the coaching antics. I just wasn't "in the know" about it.

[Velho]

9 minutes ago, LakeAmour said:

I don't care about getting paid as I have a lucrative career, but the other umpire really needed this money. So we suffered through it. 

Every time we go to work* we must decide how much of our principles we are going to compromise.

* Anything, not just umpiring

13 minutes ago, LakeAmour said:

I told the HTHC to never call me again

Good on ya.

In a situation like this, I'm not sure what else you can do other than getting cash up front but maybe folks will have ideas.

[wolfe_man]

I'd get the money upfront for just that reason.  The guy knew what he was doing too and so did the other umpire with his comments.  He knew he had you over the proverbial barrel and you had to tolerate him or risk no pay.  No money upfront, no umpiring this game for me. 

One other comment, get on the problems earlier if they're out of line.  Shut it down early and set the tone.  Maybe if you had tossed him two innings into the first game then you could have saved the rest of your day, no? 

[maven]

2 hours ago, LakeAmour said:

The HTHC says come see him after the double header to get paid. 

Yeah, he knows himself, and that he might not have to pay you if you can't or don't have the cojones to find him after the game.

I recommend that umpires always, 100%, every single time, without fail, without exception, in each instance, get paid before the game, usually at the plate meeting. If it's a DH, get both fees. And to avoid exactly this kind of situation.

2 hours ago, LakeAmour said:

Chirping from the dugout on every pitch, every call, non-stop for 5 hours. The third base coach was even worse. It was endlessly persistent. Every pitch was a balk, every out was safe, every safe was out, etc etc. 

We can't allow this. You discovered that you were going to have to dump him eventually—can you imagine how much easier those games would have been had you done so in the first inning of game 1? [I'm agreeing with wolfe_man here.]

From the first chirp from HC: "Coach, we're not doing that today. If you have a question, you may request time and we can talk. Otherwise, this is your warning." Then dump him (no second, third, nth warning).

Any ass coach or player, address the HC: "Coach, if you have a question, I'd be happy to discuss with you. We're not going to have other coaches/players getting involved in calling the game. You will be held responsible for their behavior. This is your warning." Then dump him, yes, for the offenses of others. If he says, "I didn't say anything!" remind him that he's responsible for his team.

It's too late in the history of amateur baseball for umpires to deal with such asshats. Save yourself hours of nuisance and dump early. If you've never done it, try it—you'll like it. If their other coaches don't get the message, keep dumping until they forfeit. 

The only other issue that arises sometimes is TD's interfering. If he comes over and starts to talk you out of an EJ, tell him that he's welcome to finish umpiring the game(s), if he intends to do your job for you (and this is reason #672 to get your game fees up front). 

[834k3r]

For the OP, definitely payment up front, but my guess is--as @maven pointed out--the HTHC knew his antics would justify EJ and getting payment after the games puts all of the onus on the umpires.

I do not like getting paid at the plate meeting. Not. At. All.

Arbiter (shudder) or DragonFly (eye twitch) have their faults, but I'd rather have payments through there than paid at the plate meeting.

[wolfe_man]

1 hour ago, 834k3r said:

I do not like getting paid at the plate meeting. Not. At. All.

Arbiter (shudder) or DragonFly (eye twitch) have their faults, but I'd rather have payments through there than paid at the plate meeting.

I hear you, but sometimes it's just the way it is and we gotta suffer through it.  I've had coaches try to be cute and short me, so I'm no fan of it either - but if it's gotta be this way, then I'm getting paid upfront before we proceed with the first pitch. 

I'm not dependent on officiating for my income, but my time is worth something.  If I wanted to volunteer, then I'd go do that elsewhere for a more noble cause.  I don't work games for free, especially if I have to deal with parents/coaches/fans that think they know the game or want to act out.  

The older I get the more I like the old sign I saw in my mechanic's shop... someone amended it for umpires below.   I think I may need to get one of these.   I think they need to remove the "worked on it first" part though as that doesn't necessarily apply to us - maybe that one was meant for the coaches who "I'm an umpire too".

 

[grayhawk]

1 hour ago, 834k3r said:

I do not like getting paid at the plate meeting. Not. At. All.

Really? The words "cash at the plate" puts a smile on my face. This is for off-season games, of course. All the schools pay via RQ+ or Arbiter where I work during the season.

[The Man in Blue]

You get some leeway if I have worked for you regularly, payment method was pre-established, or if you are a school.  Otherwise, if it is the first time I have worked for you, payment no later than at the plate meeting.

I am like @834k3r that I don't like the look of payment at the plate (especially when the coaches pay directly and pay cash), but that is the standard.  I like the school admins who will find you in the parking lot before the game.

Electronic payment is convenient, but again, too easy to skimp on.  I had a big tournament that I worked last year that took 3 weeks to get paid ($1100) because the guy didn't realize he could only transfer so much money in a set time period so he had to slowly dole out the payments.  I wasn't real happy with that.

 

Back to the OP's point . . . EJECT, EJECT, EJECT.  The plate umpire gave you a HUR (heads up report) which we don't usually get at that level.  You had everything you needed early.

I don't give a damn where the payment is coming from or whose signature is on the checks.  You are being paid to umpire a baseball game, not be somebody's emotional punching bag.  After you eject and get the game administration details out of the way, tell the "new" HC that he needs to make sure he has your checks.  That is now part of his duties (apparently).

In your case, you said it was a league that called you.  You have recourse and somebody to call and let them know, "We didn't get paid.  Here is why you have a problem . . . "

[LakeAmour]

Thanks for all the responses. Just to add... The HTHC is the president of the entire organization. We were really in a bad spot.

My son actually plays for a higher level of this new organization. I'd never met any of the coaches before. The away team traveled two hours to witness this spectacle. Many of their parents and coaches came up to us after the game to applaud our patience. I had to stick around after the game as my son's team was playing in that same field in an hour.

Biggest infraction... A missed tag on R2 going to 3rd. HT 3rd base coach stormed out of the dugout claiming runner was out of the baseline and he wants us to get together. 

First of all, wrong coach to request it but we got together. Ruled him clearly safe. Coach became more angry and we should have tossed him then. He wanted us to get together, we did and made a ruling, the end. But he kept going. 

"That kid was the 3 get from the baseline!" 

Me: "glad you saw, he gets three feet."

"No he doesn't! What, is the basepath seven feet wide?" 

Me: "you're not very good at math."

In between innings the HTHC approached me, right in my face screaming that everyone in the ballpark knew he was out of the baseline. I just laughed at him. We were so stuck. Never again.

My son (16) also umpires youth baseball so this is great education for him. I'm working together with him this weekend for a great father-son experience! He's already well-known for immediate ejections. I'm so proud.

[grayhawk]

16 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

Back to the OP's point . . . EJECT, EJECT, EJECT.  The plate umpire gave you a HUR (heads up report) which we don't usually get at that level.  You had everything you needed early.

I don't give a damn where the payment is coming from or whose signature is on the checks.  You are being paid to umpire a baseball game, not be somebody's emotional punching bag.  After you eject and get the game administration details out of the way, tell the "new" HC that he needs to make sure he has your checks.  That is now part of his duties (apparently).

THIS THIS THIS. ALL. FRICKIN. DAY. LONG!! (Though I would always require payment for both games up front, so I wouldn't get into this situation).

You want to show your ass because you think you can withhold payment from me? Think again, chief. You're ejected and I'll hunt you down after the game no matter what it takes to get my payment, and I WILL NOT be shy about it. 

[834k3r]

30 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

Really? The words "cash at the plate" puts a smile on my face. This is for off-season games, of course. All the schools pay via RQ+ or Arbiter where I work during the season.

Truth be told I've ben paid at the plate many times; I just don't like it.

I take pride at being a neutral arbiter, and I feel getting handed cash at the plate gives an improper perception for onlookers, even though everyone that's involved knows what's going on.

[grayhawk]

3 minutes ago, 834k3r said:

Truth be told I've ben paid at the plate many times; I just don't like it.

I take pride at being a neutral arbiter, and I feel getting handed cash at the plate gives an improper perception for onlookers, even though everyone that's involved knows what's going on.

F*#K the onlookers

[Mudisfun]

First, unless that game is the 1st rodeo for these travel ball parents, they are A) use to seeing cash trade hands at the plate meeting and even more likely, B) are not even 1/2 paying attention, chatting, playing candy crush or refilling their red solo cup and just trying to get through this so they can drive 2 hours home.

Often in the cash games I work, 1/2 the fee comes from both teams, so either they both pony up 1 full fee for a DH, or they split per game.

Get paid, get paid now. In this day and age, I have more coaches asking of I take Venmo... I printed out the QR code for my account on a business card size card and have them pay me right there at the plate. They show me the confirmation screen and we are all good to go.

Now I don't even have to wait for the wife to take it from my wallet, she can just spend direct from the app! 🤣

[concertman1971]

at this level of ball, when the AC starts to chirp, I like to turn to the head guy and say "Tommy- who is this guy and why is he talking to me?"

 

[wolfe_man]

27 minutes ago, concertman1971 said:

at this level of ball, when the AC starts to chirp, I like to turn to the head guy and say "Tommy- who is this guy and why is he talking to me?"

 

I've not done it, but I've been guilty of wanting to do it before..

Slowly turn towards AC and asks "Who are you?"

[The Man in Blue]

17 minutes ago, wolfe_man said:

I've not done it, but I've been guilty of wanting to do it before..

Slowly turn towards AC and asks "Who are you?"

I asked that of a "head coach" once.  

There apparently was a male head coach of the team, but he was not there for their first two games (he also coached another team in another tournament).  Needless to say, he was not the representative at the plate meeting (a female coach was -- only saying that to show I didn't get mixed up! 😋) and I had not seen him on the field, in the dugout, or during warmups of either game I had them.

Controversial call (no, I don't even remember what it was) and the 3B/HC coach (the rep at the plate meeting) is barking.  All the sudden, some strange dude is by her side and laying in.  It wasn't a slow turn, but it a very puzzled look, as if he was an actual walking, talking fish on my field.  I stopped mid-sentence, gave a head shake/shoulder shrug (hands out to my sides) and asked the 3B/HC, "Who is this guy?"

He immediately informs me he is the head coach.  I let him know he isn't, I've never seen him before, and give him the toss.  He storms off to find the TD.  TD shows up an inning later and asks what happened.  I tell the TD I don't know who the fan is that wandered onto the field, but I would suggest he be removed from the park if he is just going to wander onto the field during a game.  The TD laughed and left.  I believe they were eliminated after that game, or I didn't have them again, so who knows what happened.

[The Man in Blue]

2 hours ago, LakeAmour said:

Thanks for all the responses. Just to add... The HTHC is the president of the entire organization. We were really in a bad spot.

My son actually plays for a higher level of this new organization. I'd never met any of the coaches before. The away team traveled two hours to witness this spectacle. Many of their parents and coaches came up to us after the game to applaud our patience. I had to stick around after the game as my son's team was playing in that same field in an hour.

Since you have a vested interest in the organization succeeding (e.g., your son playing), I would reach out to the board and/or attend a board meeting to appraise them of the issues they are facing with finding umpires.

[LakeAmour]

2 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

Since you have a vested interest in the organization succeeding (e.g., your son playing), I would reach out to the board and/or attend a board meeting to appraise them of the issues they are facing with finding umpires.

Thanks. This is our first year in this league and I honestly have zero knowledge of the hierarchy. My son was recruited by a half dozen or so travel teams but his 16U coach was by far the best and the schedule worked best with our other kids and schedules. I assume they only knew I umpired from talking to my son as I never volunteered. I always worked a village youth league which is very laid back and I know almost all the coaches anyway.

I do hope the organization succeeds, and I mentioned that to the HTHC. But that guy is toxic and really an embarrassment to the organization. The HTHC mentioned he was looking for a successor and the top candidate is my son's coach, so there's a light at the end of the tunnel. That coach is as good as you can get.

My sincere appreciation for all the help! 

[SeeingEyeDog]

Cash game? Great! I require FULL fees for the entire crew for ALL games AT the plate meeting. And by cash...we mean cash. Greenbacks. Sawbucks. Simoleans. US American Dollars only, please and no...we do not make change.

E-Pay is NOT cash. E-Pay is E-Pay. If you want to pay via E-Pay, my crew and I need to know that in advance and we need to know which specific app so we can be loaded and configured and ready to receive your e-cash, confirmed, at the plate before the game can begin.

A check is NOT cash. A check is a check. Telling us it's a cash game and then presenting us with a check is an unprofessional move. If you are a known client, we will begrudgingly accept your pivot to a check payment with a healthy dose of shade ONE TIME. Going forward, never again and we do keep records. If you are an unknown client, we will NOT accept a check if you said cash. My crew might allow an unknown client to pivot to E-Pay but again, we will not work the game until payment receipt can be confirmed.

If you do not provide FULL payment as described at the plate meeting, my crew and I are not working your game(s). One game fee is not going to make or break an umpire. It's not about the money, it's about honesty, trust and professionalism.

~Dawg

 

[The Man in Blue]

6 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

E-Pay is NOT cash. E-Pay is E-Pay. If you want to pay via E-Pay, my crew and I need to know that in advance and we need to know which specific app so we can be loaded and configured and ready to receive your e-cash, confirmed, at the plate before the game can begin.

 

THAT, THAT, THAT is an often overlooked point.  No, I am not downloading another sketchy e-pay app.

Now, I will say, the outfit that I am primarily working for in the summer does pay by e-check by Wednesday for the previous weekend.  This is not an e-pay transfer, it is just an e-mailed check that you print out.  (You can do some e-transfers for a cost.)  I do not mind this as it is not "a check in the mail" and can be tracked ... Plus there is no chance of me washing it (I have done that too many times).  🙈

[SeeingEyeDog]

1 hour ago, The Man in Blue said:

THAT, THAT, THAT is an often overlooked point.  No, I am not downloading another sketchy e-pay app.

Now, I will say, the outfit that I am primarily working for in the summer does pay by e-check by Wednesday for the previous weekend.  This is not an e-pay transfer, it is just an e-mailed check that you print out.  (You can do some e-transfers for a cost.)  I do not mind this as it is not "a check in the mail" and can be tracked ... Plus there is no chance of me washing it (I have done that too many times).  🙈

YES! YES! YES! ...and I should have added that if you give me an app and the umpires scheduled to work the game are not all up on that app and a guy on the crew says, "He's not adding another app..." sketchy or otherwise, we will communicate that to you. If you like you may again pivot to another app or another payment option or...find a new umpire amenable to your terms who can replace the one who is not.

As always, we are independent contractors. We are each running our own little umpire shop. When I worked in sales, we had an expression...the piece of business is not considered closed until payment has been collected. If you are not able or unwilling to collect payments, you do not have a business. You have a hobby. Each of us has to decide how we are going to manage the collection department of our individual umpire shops. Anybody can book and work games...it all means nothing if you don't get paid. 

~Dawg

[JSam21]

If someone says come see me after the game to get paid... "No, we aren't starting until we get our payment."

[BigBlue4u]

On 6/13/2024 at 7:29 AM, maven said:

Chirping from the dugout on every pitch, every call, non-stop for 5 hours. The third base coach was even worse. It was endlessly persistent. Every pitch was a balk, every out was safe, every safe was out, etc etc. 

This is exactly how coaches take game control from the umpires!  The FIRST time any of this happens, the message to the coach is "We're not doing this today. This is your warning for the rest of the game."  PERIOD!  Many coaches will chirp, bitch, complain, etc. etc. UNTIL YOU STOP THEM.

You are doing favors to nobody by allowing this type of activity to continue after a first-time warning.  

Also, good points from those who recommend getting paid before the game (s).  It's a heavy burden to carry thinking you'll have trouble getting paid if you have to discipline the coach.

[Baseballer]

Try to get paid up front and dump them early if they cannot understand a warning. No one should have to worry about whether they are getting paid for their work at a job or on a field. Let alone put up with a use like this for the purpose of getting paid. 

[johnnyg08]

When these scenarios come up for us, we have the association pay the umpire and the association get reimbursed from the team. 

That being said, we also work really hard to get paid at the plate meeting.