FPSR in NFHS (Fed)?

[johnnyg08]

 

[ErichKeane]

I think this is one of those that is legal in NFHS (not an interference), but IS based on the diagram of 'directly into the base' in NCAA.  NFHS rule looks ot be:
 

 

2-32 ART. 1 . . . A legal slide can be either feet first or head first. If a runner slides feet first, at least one leg and buttock shall be on the ground. If a runner slides, he must slide within reach of the base with either a hand or a foot. A runner may slide or run in a direction away from the fielder to avoid making contact or altering the play of the fielder (8-4-2b).

 

He was definitely within reach of the base, but based on the video, was clearly in the NCAA "grey" zone in the diagram that makes the slide illegal in NCAA.

 

[The Man in Blue]

Since we called 6 interference calls on double play attempts (in 9 games) this weekend, I feel confident in proclaiming myself an expert.  That was legal in NFHS.

 

As for the broadcaster, I had an epiphany this afternoon on the field.

You ever notice that you will hear about former players becoming coaches and broadcasters, you will hear about former coaches becoming broadcasters, but you NEVER hear about former players, coaches, or broadcasters becoming umpires.  Think about that for a moment. 

[JSam21]

7 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

Since we called 6 interference calls on double play attempts (in 9 games) this weekend, I feel confident in proclaiming myself an expert.  That was legal in NFHS.

 

 

Why is this legal in NFHS? 8-4-2-b "... or on a force play does not slide in a direct line between the bases..." This runner is not in a direct line between the bases. NFHS also has the the same "protected area" that the NCAA has on either side of the base, and including straight through the base. The runner is in the protected area in a direction towards the fielder, that's a violation. 

[JSam21]

9 hours ago, ErichKeane said:

I think this is one of those that is legal in NFHS (not an interference), but IS based on the diagram of 'directly into the base' in NCAA.  NFHS rule looks ot be:
 

 

2-32 ART. 1 . . . A legal slide can be either feet first or head first. If a runner slides feet first, at least one leg and buttock shall be on the ground. If a runner slides, he must slide within reach of the base with either a hand or a foot. A runner may slide or run in a direction away from the fielder to avoid making contact or altering the play of the fielder (8-4-2b).

 

He was definitely within reach of the base, but based on the video, was clearly in the NCAA "grey" zone in the diagram that makes the slide illegal in NCAA.

 

You aren't using the proper rule here. What you have quoted is just for a legal slide. 8-4-2-b "... or on a force play does not slide in a direct line between the bases..." NFHS has the same protected area that NCAA has, but they also include the area beyond the base as a protected area. The above play is a violation. 

[noumpere]

9 hours ago, ErichKeane said:

 

He was definitely within reach of the base, but based on the video, was clearly in the NCAA "grey" zone in the diagram that makes the slide illegal in NCAA.

 

The only difference in the "grey area" diagram between NCAA and FED is the area beyond the base (1b-2b line extended) -- it's legal to continue through the base in NCAA; it's illegal (or was, in case it's changed) in FED.  Sliding to the side where the fielder is is illegal in both.

 

(NCAA allows the runner to do a few more things than does FED; but FED does not allow the runner to do anything that's illegal in NCAA.  So if the INT call was valid in NCAA, it's logically illegal also in FED.)

[JSam21]

[The Man in Blue]

Alright, I'll be that guy  . . . I'm not disagreeing with you that it should be the same, but I am disagreeing that the NFHS language says the same thing.

First, I have never seen the NCAA chart presented for any NFHS rules format.  (I wish it was.)

Next, the NFHS rule says "in a direct line between the bases" but then defines a legal slide as being within a reach of the base.  The rule does not say "in a direct line TO the base."  Very few runners are running in a line directly between the two bases.  The vast majority are coming from outside (outfield side) of that line.  Are you calling them for starting a slide outside of the direct line from first to second?  No.  What this part is saying is, IMO, further verified in the POE . . . 

Third, the POE says "may not slide AWAY from the base in the direction of the fielder."  I read that as saying a deviation towards the fielder is not legal (and that is what the picture in the POE shows).  The line of the slide may not go away from the line between the runner and the base (similar to a base path violation -- draw a straight line).  In the slide in the video, the runner is off to the side of the bag, but he does not deviate his path.

[JSam21]

14 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

Alright, I'll be that guy  . . . I'm not disagreeing with you that it should be the same, but I am disagreeing that the NFHS language says the same thing.

First, I have never seen the NCAA chart presented for any NFHS rules format.  (I wish it was.)

Next, the NFHS rule says "in a direct line between the bases" but then defines a legal slide as being within a reach of the base.  The rule does not say "in a direct line TO the base."  Very few runners are running in a line directly between the two bases.  The vast majority are coming from outside (outfield side) of that line.  Are you calling them for starting a slide outside of the direct line from first to second?  No.  What this part is saying is, IMO, further verified in the POE . . . 

Third, the POE says "may not slide AWAY from the base in the direction of the fielder."  I read that as saying a deviation towards the fielder is not legal (and that is what the picture in the POE shows).  The line of the slide may not go away from the line between the runner and the base (similar to a base path violation -- draw a straight line).  In the slide in the video, the runner is off to the side of the bag, but he does not deviate his path.

What is a direct line between the bases other than a straight line between the two bases? No where does the NFHS rule talk about a direct line from the runner's starting position to the base. All of that is added by you. 

It means that the runner needs to slide within the width of the base and not into the protected area where the defender is. 

 

You are still caught up on the legality of the slide. The slide in and of itself is legal. However, where the slide is taking place isn't, only on a force play. 

 

[Thunderheads]

41 minutes ago, JSam21 said:

It means that the runner needs to slide within the width of the base and not into the protected area where the defender is. 

So, ...he slides into the portion of the bag that's "right of center" ...that's still a direct line as the base is what ... 15" square, correct?   (Not an argument, good discussion, as I too do not see this a violation in HS)

[The Man in Blue]

31 minutes ago, JSam21 said:

What is a direct line between the bases other than a straight line between the two bases? No where does the NFHS rule talk about a direct line from the runner's starting position to the base. All of that is added by you. 

It means that the runner needs to slide within the width of the base and not into the protected area where the defender is. 

You are still caught up on the legality of the slide. The slide in and of itself is legal. However, where the slide is taking place isn't, only on a force play. 

 

 

That is my point, but you are adding interpretations from other codes to reach that addition.  I am saying it does NOT say the slide has to be within a bounded area (width of the base, NCAA), just that it has to be

People arguing against this slide in NFHS are adding the NCAA chart into a ruleset that does not use it.

The NFHS rule states the slide must be in a direct line between the two bases, NOT that the slide has to be directly to the base.  A legal slide in NFHS is within reach of the bag.  On a force play, as long as the slide is a straight line -- NOT moving away from the base toward the fielder (which is what the NFHS pictogram shows) -- it can be within reach of the base and is legal.  2-32-2(f) does not change or supersede 2-32-1, it adds to it.

If you want to be truly literal on that call, nearly EVERY slide on a force play should be illegal since runners do not run in a direct line drawn between the two bases.  

I'm not arguing it SHOULD be legal.  I'm arguing it IS legal by the words in the NFHS book.  (Read: NFHS, FIX YOUR RULES if you want something different.  Quit sending e-mails and adding case plays that you charge an extra $10 for.)

[noumpere]

54 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

Alright, I'll be that guy  . . . I'm not disagreeing with you that it should be the same, but I am disagreeing that the NFHS language says the same thing.

First, I have never seen the NCAA chart presented for any NFHS rules format.  (I wish it was.)

Next, the NFHS rule says "in a direct line between the bases" but then defines a legal slide as being within a reach of the base. 

Third, the POE says "may not slide AWAY from the base in the direction of the fielder."  I read that as saying a deviation towards the fielder is not legal (and that is what the picture in the POE shows).  The line of the slide may not go away from the line between the runner and the base (similar to a base path violation -- draw a straight line).  In the slide in the video, the runner is off to the side of the bag, but he does not deviate his path.

1) You mean the base with the grey areas?  It was in the rule book for FED for a number of years -- with everything except the 15"-wide rectangle directly toward first being gray.

2) ALL slides must be within the reach of the base.  IN ADDITION, a force slide must be directly to the base. (A force slide is a subset of all slides; the force slide must meet all of the "all slide" requirements AND any additional requirements.")

3) A slide is either TO the base or AWAY from the base.  "Away" and "Deviate" are not synonyms (at least with respect to this rule.)

[JSam21]

16 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

 

That is my point, but you are adding interpretations from other codes to reach that addition.  I am saying it does NOT say the slide has to be within a bounded area (width of the base, NCAA), just that it has to be

People arguing against this slide in NFHS are adding the NCAA chart into a ruleset that does not use it.

The NFHS rule states the slide must be in a direct line between the two bases, NOT that the slide has to be directly to the base.  A legal slide in NFHS is within reach of the bag.  On a force play, as long as the slide is a straight line -- NOT moving away from the base toward the fielder (which is what the NFHS pictogram shows) -- it can be within reach of the base and is legal.  2-32-2(f) does not change or supersede 2-32-1, it adds to it.

If you want to be truly literal on that call, nearly EVERY slide on a force play should be illegal since runners do not run in a direct line drawn between the two bases.  

I'm not arguing it SHOULD be legal.  I'm arguing it IS legal by the words in the NFHS book.  (Read: NFHS, FIX YOUR RULES if you want something different.  Quit sending e-mails and adding case plays that you charge an extra $10 for.)

I'm not saying that you are arguing for it. I'm saying that your argument of the interpretation is incorrect. The direct line between the two bases is between the straight lines from the inside edge of first base to the inside edge of 2nd base and the outside edge of first base and the outside edge of second base. That is the direct line between the two bases. If you are outside of that, towards the defender, you are in violation. 

Again... You are talking about the legality of a slide in general, i.e. being within reach, that is not what we are talking about here. The slide cannot be in the direction of the defender on a force play, unless that defender is on the base. 

[Thunderheads]

20 minutes ago, noumpere said:

1) You mean the base with the grey areas?  It was in the rule book for FED for a number of years -- with everything except the 15"-wide rectangle directly toward first being gray.

I never recall seeing a diagram for FPSR in HS? 🤔  I believe you, I just don't recall

[Thunderheads]

can someone post the college diagram?

[noumpere]

[JSam21]

1 hour ago, Thunderheads said:

So, ...he slides into the portion of the bag that's "right of center" ...that's still a direct line as the base is what ... 15" square, correct?   (Not an argument, good discussion, as I too do not see this a violation in HS)

I would not protect the runner if he is not entirely outside the protected area away from the defender.

[JSam21]

1 hour ago, Thunderheads said:

I never recall seeing a diagram for FPSR in HS? 🤔  I believe you, I just don't recall

I 100% remember seeing it several years ago in a slide show produced by NFHS... however they don't archive their stuff and nothing comes up on the NFHS website. 

[Thunderheads]

14 minutes ago, JSam21 said:

I would not protect the runner if he is not entirely outside the protected area away from the defender.

So you would have (in NFHS) .... the runner ok is he slid here (red arrow)

[Thunderheads]

Relooking at this video in slow motion and from the college rule ...I do see much better here where R1 was and why it was called.

I'm still not grabbing this on a HS field because 1, ... not sure either PU or base ump would see this, and 2. the way the HS school rule is written, I'd still say he's ok here. PLUS ... it'd be a really SH*#ty end of the stick!

******** ON EDIT *************  I'm wrong.  It should be grabbed IF YOU CAN SEE IT ... (in 2 man it may be tough)

 

 

[grayhawk]

18 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

Relooking at this video in slow motion and from the college rule ...I do see much better here where R1 was and why it was called.

I'm still not grabbing this on a HS field because 1, ... not sure either PU or base ump would see this, and 2. the way the HS school rule is written, I'd still say he's ok here. PLUS ... it'd be a really SH*#ty end of the stick!

 

 

But you SHOULD call it in HS. He is clearly not sliding in a direct line between the bases. If we don't clean this stuff up, who will? It is not hard for a runner to slide legally. He clearly chose to slide towards the fielder. His choice, his violation.

[maven]

48 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

I'm still not grabbing this on a HS field because 1, ... not sure either PU or base ump would see this, and 2. the way the HS school rule is written, I'd still say he's ok here. PLUS ... it'd be a really SH*#ty end of the stick!

Disagree: grayhawk is right. 

1. BU in B can certainly see this.
2. The FED rule clearly requires sliding on a direct line between the bases, which this is not.
3. The stick is shîtty only because so many umpires can't be arsed to enforce the rule. I recommend becoming part of the solution.

[Richvee]

40 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

If we don't clean this stuff up, who will?

I agree. One may think coaches. But that won’t happen until we start calling every violation. 
 

oh… add a new pet peeve of mine….. “Break up two”.
 If I had a dime for every coach I hear tell R1 “ Freeze a line drive, break up two on the ground”……I’d have 20 bucks or so. 😁

[JSam21]

1 hour ago, Thunderheads said:

So you would have (in NFHS) .... the runner ok is he slid here (red arrow)

Is their entire body to the left of that arrow?

[JSam21]

1 hour ago, Thunderheads said:

Relooking at this video in slow motion and from the college rule ...I do see much better here where R1 was and why it was called.

I'm still not grabbing this on a HS field because 1, ... not sure either PU or base ump would see this, and 2. the way the HS school rule is written, I'd still say he's ok here. PLUS ... it'd be a really SH*#ty end of the stick!

 

 

It isn't that hard to get if we are getting out from behind the plate in the two umpire system. His foot hit the base and his entire body was to the right of the base.