johnnyg08 Posted June 2 Report Share Posted June 2 Bottom of the 8th inning. Bases loaded. Game is tied 5-5. 1 out. Defense goes to 5 infielders. Batter hits a deep line drive to straight away CF where there is no defender. Batted ball is resting at the base of the outfield fence. R1 stops to celebrate and does not touch 2B R2 stops to celebrate and does not touch 3B R3 touches home B/R touches 1B Team celebration ensues between 1B & 2B Infielders leave fair territory and F2 leaves the circle, heading to the dugout. The umpires exit the field without a defensive appeal and head to their cars. Game ends 6-5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimurray Posted June 2 Report Share Posted June 2 8 hours ago, johnnyg08 said: Bottom of the 8th inning. Bases loaded. Game is tied 5-5. 1 out. Defense goes to 5 infielders. Batter hits a deep line drive to straight away CF where there is no defender. Batted ball is resting at the base of the outfield fence. R1 stops to celebrate and does not touch 2B R2 stops to celebrate and does not touch 3B R3 touches home B/R touches 1B Team celebration ensues between 1B & 2B Infielders leave fair territory and F2 leaves the circle, heading to the dugout. The umpires exit the field without a defensive appeal and head to their cars. Game ends 6-5. The umpires exit the field without a defensive appeal and head to their cars. Game ending that’s all you need. Game is over as last ump goes out the door. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maven Posted June 2 Report Share Posted June 2 I would have thought that every HS varsity coach would want to know that rule. I know a bunch of them who are always looking for a rules advantage—sometimes in the weirdest places. (You're welcome for me not hijacking the thread with war stories...) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyg08 Posted June 2 Author Report Share Posted June 2 2 hours ago, maven said: I would have thought that every HS varsity coach would want to know that rule. I know a bunch of them who are always looking for a rules advantage—sometimes in the weirdest places. (You're welcome for me not hijacking the thread with war stories...) This certainly had the making of a war story! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyg08 Posted June 5 Author Report Share Posted June 5 Let's dig a little deeper here... What options did the defense have to appeal? With the ball lying out in centerfield and a celebration happening between 1B & 2B do we have rule support to honor a verbal appeal? In other words, as we're jogging off of the field, could the defense have simply said, we appeal R2 not touching 3B and R1 not touching 2B since the runners are no longer attempting to advance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSam21 Posted June 5 Report Share Posted June 5 6 hours ago, johnnyg08 said: Let's dig a little deeper here... What options did the defense have to appeal? With the ball lying out in centerfield and a celebration happening between 1B & 2B do we have rule support to honor a verbal appeal? In other words, as we're jogging off of the field, could the defense have simply said, we appeal R2 not touching 3B and R1 not touching 2B since the runners are no longer attempting to advance? Sure... or if you want to really grab the stick... get them both on your own for abandonment. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimurray Posted June 17 Report Share Posted June 17 On 6/5/2024 at 2:31 PM, JSam21 said: Sure... or if you want to really grab the stick... get them both on your own for abandonment. Vermont has given NFHS another reason to adopt OBR/NCAA game ending walkoff walks. You might have to scroll or explore. It's twitter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grayhawk Posted June 17 Report Share Posted June 17 Obviously, R1 and R2 both failed to touch their forced bases. The BR, after celebrating with his teammates, goes and touches 1st. I lost track of him but he was likely physically assisted by someone other than a viable runner in the process. If R1 & R2 did touch their forced bases, how SH*#ty would the end of the stick be to call out R1 for being physically assisted? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyg08 Posted June 18 Author Report Share Posted June 18 In the new play, I think we see a verbal appeal from the coach. I don't love abandonment on a walk off. IMO, I think we need an appeal. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grayhawk Posted June 18 Report Share Posted June 18 3 minutes ago, johnnyg08 said: In the new play, I think we see a verbal appeal from the coach. I don't love abandonment on a walk off. IMO, I think we need an appeal. Didn't Fed say as much in some sort of ruling? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyg08 Posted June 18 Author Report Share Posted June 18 Just now, grayhawk said: Didn't Fed say as much in some sort of ruling? Probably...in fact I may have even posted it. HA! It's hard trying to keep it all straight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimurray Posted June 18 Report Share Posted June 18 1 minute ago, johnnyg08 said: Probably...in fact I may have even posted it. HA! It's hard trying to keep it all straight. Which is why FED should convert to OBR/NCAA game ending walks/HBP. FED requires a legal appeal which requires the ump to judge relaxed action and call time to accept a verbal appeal or not call time while the guilty baserunners are beelining to their not touched base. Sooner or later that type of goatrope will happen. NCAA thought it mirrored OBR and changed from how FED does it to OBR to "simplify game ending procedures." But they left some wording regarding "appeal" and I had to argue with a whole bunch of NCAA umps who still wanted an appeal instead of the accepted interp of asking the B-R to go to 1B and ruling him out if he "refused". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Man in Blue Posted June 18 Report Share Posted June 18 48 minutes ago, johnnyg08 said: In the new play, I think we see a verbal appeal from the coach. I don't love abandonment on a walk off. IMO, I think we need an appeal. But abandonment is NOT an appeal play. So what is he appealing? That the runner missed first? I’m with @Jimurray … if he hasn’t truly abandoned (left the field), I’m walking over to the coach and asking, “Hey Jim! Is he going to touch first so we can leave? Or do you guys want to keep playing?” What do you have if he runs to first while the umpires are conferring? Edit: Did a quick reference check. NFHS abandonment rules apply AFTER a runner reaches first base … so … blown call? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimurray Posted June 18 Report Share Posted June 18 3 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said: But abandonment is NOT an appeal play. What do you have if he runs to first while the umpires are conferring? I have another argument to persuade FED to change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Man in Blue Posted June 18 Report Share Posted June 18 27 minutes ago, Jimurray said: I have another argument to persuade FED to change. Maybe not … see the above “edit.” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimurray Posted June 18 Report Share Posted June 18 5 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said: Maybe not … see the above “edit.” I have a hazy memory of OBR still requiring a runner called out for abandonment to be appealed to get the "force out". Otherwise any prior runs will score. But the only FED caseplay specifically says there has to be an appeal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Man in Blue Posted June 18 Report Share Posted June 18 56 minutes ago, johnnyg08 said: Probably...in fact I may have even posted it. HA! It's hard trying to keep it all straight. What? You mean umpiring by hearsay, treasure map, and secret codes doesn’t work out for the betterment of the game? 3 minutes ago, Jimurray said: I have a hazy memory of OBR still requiring a runner called out for abandonment to be appealed to get the "force out". Otherwise any prior runs will score. But the only FED caseplay specifically says there has to be an appeal. Of course there is an NFHS case play that contradicts all written rules. Will have to look for it when I get home. 🙄 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimurray Posted June 18 Report Share Posted June 18 22 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said: What? You mean umpiring by hearsay, treasure map, and secret codes doesn’t work out for the betterment of the game? Of course there is an NFHS case play that contradicts all written rules. Will have to look for it when I get home. 🙄 Actually it's a 2012 Interp: "SITUATION 18: In the bottom of the eighth inning, the score is tied, with the bases loaded and two outs. B6 draws a walk and runs and touches first base. B1 trots in from third and touches home plate. B2, however, begins celebrating and never touches third base. RULING: All runners must legally touch the next base in advancing. If the defense legally appeals while at least one umpire is still on the field of play, B2 is declared out for the third out. Since this out would be a “force” out, no runs would score and the game would continue into the ninth inning. (8-2-1, 8-2-6j, 9-1-1a and d)" 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyg08 Posted June 18 Author Report Share Posted June 18 3 hours ago, The Man in Blue said: But abandonment is NOT an appeal play. So what is he appealing? That the runner missed first? I’m with @Jimurray … if he hasn’t truly abandoned (left the field), I’m walking over to the coach and asking, “Hey Jim! Is he going to touch first so we can leave? Or do you guys want to keep playing?” What do you have if he runs to first while the umpires are conferring? Edit: Did a quick reference check. NFHS abandonment rules apply AFTER a runner reaches first base … so … blown call? I think he's appealing R2 & R1, which are both force outs. BR does touch 1B 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Man in Blue Posted June 18 Report Share Posted June 18 2 hours ago, Jimurray said: Actually it's a 2012 Interp: "SITUATION 18: In the bottom of the eighth inning, the score is tied, with the bases loaded and two outs. B6 draws a walk and runs and touches first base. B1 trots in from third and touches home plate. B2, however, begins celebrating and never touches third base. RULING: All runners must legally touch the next base in advancing. If the defense legally appeals while at least one umpire is still on the field of play, B2 is declared out for the third out. Since this out would be a “force” out, no runs would score and the game would continue into the ninth inning. (8-2-1, 8-2-6j, 9-1-1a and d)" 19 minutes ago, johnnyg08 said: I think he's appealing R2 & R1, which are both force outs. BR does touch 1B OK, I'm going to be pedantic and once again, argue that the case play is wrong. 8-2-1 states runners must touch bases in order, including awarded bases. (Side note: do we consider a BB as "awarded bases?") 8-2-6(j) states any End of Game situation which could lead to an appeal must be made while the umpire is on the field. 9-1-1 is how a runner scores and provides the "third out" provisions. 9-1-1(a) is specifically "by the batter runner before he touches first base." 9-1-1(d) is when a valid defensive appeal is made for what would be a force out. HOWEVER . . . Here is the list of appealable plays (back to 8-2-6): Missing a base Leaving a base on caught fly ball before the ball is first touched #3 . . . there is no #3. R1 and R2 did not touch the next base, OK. They can, theoretically, be called out for abandonment, however, there is no valid appeal on this. Either the umpires call them out for abandonment (which the rule supports) or they make them touch the base. There is NO appeal. Here is my next noodle-baker . . . what is a FORCE OUT? Can a runner being advanced on a walk be considered a FORCE OUT? I will take the position of NO, if you are going to consider this an appeal (which I don't believe it is) it's still a time play like leaving early and the run still scores as it would under 9-1-1(c) which only nullifies the run if it is a preceding runner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyg08 Posted June 18 Author Report Share Posted June 18 7 hours ago, The Man in Blue said: Here is my next noodle-baker . . . what is a FORCE OUT? Can a runner being advanced on a walk be considered a FORCE OUT? I will take the position of NO, if you are going to consider this an appeal (which I don't believe it is) it's still a time play like leaving early and the run still scores as it would under 9-1-1(c) which only nullifies the run if it is a preceding runner. I think I can agree that a walk is a base award, not a batted ball. What do you think the coach is out there telling the umpire? "Good game Blue?" That's gotta be a verbal appeal...no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Man in Blue Posted June 18 Report Share Posted June 18 1 hour ago, johnnyg08 said: I think I can agree that a walk is a base award, not a batted ball. What do you think the coach is out there telling the umpire? "Good game Blue?" That's gotta be a verbal appeal...no? Let me say, am not 100% convinced on how to adjudicate this play and I am talking through it by disassembling it (my green side). What I am 100% convinced of is that abandonment is not an appeal play. He may be out there pointing out that the runner’s haven’t touched, but he cannot be demanding a ruling (an appeal). Abandonment must be an umpire call. Maybe they got together after the coach came out and said, “Yeah, he’s right, they didn’t touch.” Still NOT an appeal. So . . . If it is NOT an appeal . . . Does the run score even if the umpires rule abandonment? It would seem that they do, unless you believe a team can get a force out on a walk. Absent a force, it seems to me this becomes a time play. So when does the time play kick in? When the abandonment happened? Or when the umpires ruled? Although I am firmly on the page of “not an appeal play,” I am inclined to say when the umpires ruled, which essentially leans back into being like an appeal play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyg08 Posted June 18 Author Report Share Posted June 18 3 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said: Let me say, am not 100% convinced on how to adjudicate this play and I am talking through it by disassembling it (my green side). What I am 100% convinced of is that abandonment is not an appeal play. He may be out there pointing out that the runner’s haven’t touched, but he cannot be demanding a ruling (an appeal). Abandonment must be an umpire call. Maybe they got together after the coach came out and said, “Yeah, he’s right, they didn’t touch.” Still NOT an appeal. So . . . If it is NOT an appeal . . . Does the run score even if the umpires rule abandonment? It would seem that they do, unless you believe a team can get a force out on a walk. Absent a force, it seems to me this becomes a time play. So when does the time play kick in? When the abandonment happened? Or when the umpires ruled? Although I am firmly on the page of “not an appeal play,” I am inclined to say when the umpires ruled, which essentially leans back into being like an appeal play. Isn't there something in the abandonment verbiage that states that the runners returning to the dugout or their defensive position because they believe they were put out? If it's abandonment...and it very well could be sans the 2012 case play, then I think we need a very clear definition of abandonment. Abandonment on these plays puts the umpire in a very, very difficult spot...almost along the lines of the old school missed base appeal where the defense wasn't obligated to appeal a missed base. My brain (orange is it?) tells me that the defense has to have some skin in the game here. This play is wild because the batter/runner didn't even advance...as if the magic winning run fairy simply waves the wand and a run appears on the scoreboard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tborze Posted June 18 Report Share Posted June 18 9 hours ago, The Man in Blue said: OK, I'm going to be pedantic and once again, argue that the case play is wrong. 8-2-1 states runners must touch bases in order, including awarded bases. (Side note: do we consider a BB as "awarded bases?") 8-2-6(j) states any End of Game situation which could lead to an appeal must be made while the umpire is on the field. 9-1-1 is how a runner scores and provides the "third out" provisions. 9-1-1(a) is specifically "by the batter runner before he touches first base." 9-1-1(d) is when a valid defensive appeal is made for what would be a force out. HOWEVER . . . Here is the list of appealable plays (back to 8-2-6): Missing a base Leaving a base on caught fly ball before the ball is first touched #3 . . . there is no #3. R1 and R2 did not touch the next base, OK. They can, theoretically, be called out for abandonment, however, there is no valid appeal on this. Either the umpires call them out for abandonment (which the rule supports) or they make them touch the base. There is NO appeal. Here is my next noodle-baker . . . what is a FORCE OUT? Can a runner being advanced on a walk be considered a FORCE OUT? I will take the position of NO, if you are going to consider this an appeal (which I don't believe it is) it's still a time play like leaving early and the run still scores as it would under 9-1-1(c) which only nullifies the run if it is a preceding runner. Did you read “Notes” under 9-1-1? All runners must touch! @johnnyg08 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Man in Blue Posted June 18 Report Share Posted June 18 5 minutes ago, Tborze said: Did you read “Notes” under 9-1-1? All runners must touch! I did, and that is why I am in the “Coach, we all want to go home, can they go touch the base now?” camp. They must touch before the game is declared over. There is no penalty prescribed in 9-1-1. It is like retouching the bag on a foul ball. Honestly, I am disappointed in the BU for not yelling at them before they ran off. I’ve been talking a lot about the out calls because, as I said, I am trying to analyze the heck out that angle. I don’t believe it is the right angle though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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