Missed Base Dead Ball Verbal Appeal

[johnnyg08]

When can an umpire uphold a dead ball missed base verbal appeal on an out-of-the-park home run? 

Can F2 verbally appeal to the plate umpire the millisecond the batter/runner misses/passes home plate? 

In addition, when can a baserunner no longer return to touch the missed home plate? 

 

[maven]

IIRC, no dead ball appeal should be granted until baserunners have had the opportunity to correct their errors. A scoring runner may correct his errors in FED until he enters the dugout. So we should wait to rule on DB appeals (which are verbal appeals) until the runner enters the dugout.

It's not perfectly clear in the rules that the duration of the runner's "opportunity to correct" is exactly the same as the window for "returning to correct," but that's how I would treat it. 

[MadMax]

8 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

In addition, when can a baserunner no longer return to touch the missed home plate? 

Since you say “a baserunner”, he can’t return to validly touch the (missed) home plate if a trailing runner (including the BR) crosses home plate before he attempts to correct. 

By validly, I mean if that Runner misses, and the trailing Runner crosses (for the sake of argument, he touches) home plate, the previous Runner can suddenly realize that he missed it, and step upon the plate all he wants, and it may convince the defense that he appears to correct the miss, but that correction has been rendered invalid. So, a shrewd defense can appeal, and that previous Runner would be deemed Out. 

[johnnyg08]

1 hour ago, MadMax said:

Since you say “a baserunner”, he can’t return to validly touch the (missed) home plate if a trailing runner (including the BR) crosses home plate before he attempts to correct. 

By validly, I mean if that Runner misses, and the trailing Runner crosses (for the sake of argument, he touches) home plate, the previous Runner can suddenly realize that he missed it, and step upon the plate all he wants, and it may convince the defense that he appears to correct the miss, but that correction has been rendered invalid. So, a shrewd defense can appeal, and that previous Runner would be deemed Out. 

Yep. I don't dispute that. Let's keep it simple and say that it was a solo home run. Batter/runner misses home plate and the F2 immediately appeals to PU that he missed home plate. Are we granting that appeal? 

8.2.2M states that we have the "steps of the dugout" as a guide. Why wouldn't that apply here? Isn't the dugout the "succeeding base" in this scenario? 

 

[MadMax]

3 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

Batter/runner misses home plate and the F2 immediately appeals to PU that he missed home plate. Are we granting that appeal? 

No. This isn’t like a Live-ball appeal-sans-tag. An example of this would be if a Runner comes in to score (running), and the F2 receives the throw well late to make a play… but notices that Runner missed the plate as he ran past. Instead of going to tag the Runner, F2 (in possession of the ball) touches the plate and “appeals” to the Umpire. Runner  would be Out, no matter where he was in space around / near / away from the plate*. 

So if the ball is Dead, then we need a different landmark or threshold to reach so as to then grant appeals. Of course, in OBR & NCAA, that threshold is “Re-enliven the ball”. What then is the landmark or threshold to use in NFHS and their Dead-ball appeals? 

Let me use 2 scenarios as ancillary discussion points in this search. In both scenarios, the BR misses 1B and the BU has seen this and is consciously observing all subsequent activity: 

1. BR hits a double. Time is granted and called. BR leaves base to trot back to give 1BC his elbow guard. Whether intentional or not, he touches (for the 1st time) 1B, and then goes back to 2B, ready to resume the game. Is this a proper retouch and correction? The defense now wants to appeal; what’s the ruling on that appeal? 
2. BR (Catcher) hits a triple (wow! Rare!) and a CR is summoned. Time is called. The 1BC, having seen BR miss 1B, too, calls over the CR and discreetly instructs him to touch 1B, then 2B, then arrive at 3B. Is this a valid retouch and correction (by a valid sub/CR)? If the defense then wants to appeal, what’s the ruling? 

Surely, awards take precedence and priority over appeals. I once had to rule on a play wherein the Batter hit a whallop to the fence that the R1 overran 2B, but the F8 caught it. R1 returned back towards 1B, but of course, didn’t retouch 2B on the way back. His panicked retreat drew a throw, but instead of the middle infielders appealing the missed retouch, the throw was relayed to 1B, and went OOP. R1 awarded 3B. 3BC/HC yells at & reminds R1 to “stomp on second!” as he goes by this time. My fellow Vulture and I had to hold at bay the questioning defense until R1 was (then) on 3B (As PU, I was doing the holding, my fellow Vulture BU was doing the awarding, and subsequent explaining). We explained that, by rule, the awarding of bases must be completed first, and by correctly touching the bases during the award, the Runner negated the earlier miss. 

So, technically, a HR is a 4-base dead-ball award… and completion of the award must be allowed first before appeals can be granted. And the only landmark we have for a Runner conceding / abandoning in NFHS is the dugout (or similar DBT). 

Edit: * - I realized that a play at the plate, with failure to touch the plate (by R) & no tag (by F) is treated differently. The Mexican Chicken Standoff ensues, unless and until R concedes. 

[johnnyg08]

11 minutes ago, MadMax said:

No. This isn’t like a Live-ball appeal-sans-tag. An example of this would be if a Runner comes in to score (running), and the F2 receives the throw well late to make a play… but notices that Runner missed the plate as he ran past. Instead of going to tag the Runner, F2 (in possession of the ball) touches the plate and “appeals” to the Umpire. Runner  would be Out, no matter where he was in space around / near / away from the plate. 

So if the ball is Dead, then we need a different landmark or threshold to reach so as to then grant appeals. Of course, in OBR & NCAA, that threshold is “Re-enliven the ball”. What then is the landmark or threshold to use in NFHS and their Dead-ball appeals? 

Let me use 2 scenarios as ancillary discussion points in this search. In both scenarios, the BR misses 1B and the BU has seen this and is consciously observing all subsequent activity: 

1. BR hits a double. Time is granted and called. BR leaves base to trot back to give 1BC his elbow guard. Whether intentional or not, he touches (for the 1st time) 1B, and then goes back to 2B, ready to resume the game. Is this a proper retouch and correction? The defense now wants to appeal; what’s the ruling on that appeal? 
2. BR (Catcher) hits a triple (wow! Rare!) and a CR is summoned. Time is called. The 1BC, having seen BR miss 1B, too, calls over the CR and discreetly instructs him to touch 1B, then 2B, then arrive at 3B. Is this a valid retouch and correction (by a valid sub/CR)? If the defense then wants to appeal, what’s the ruling? 

Surely, awards take precedence and priority over appeals. I once had to rule on a play wherein the Batter hit a whallop to the fence that the R1 overran 2B, but the F8 caught it. R1 returned back towards 1B, but of course, didn’t retouch 2B on the way back. His panicked retreat drew a throw, but instead of the middle infielders appealing the missed retouch, the throw was relayed to 1B, and went OOP. R1 awarded 3B. 3BC/HC yells at & reminds R1 to “stomp on second!” as he goes by this time. My fellow Vulture and I had to hold at bay the questioning defense until R1 was (then) on 3B (As PU, I was doing the holding, my fellow Vulture BU was doing the awarding, and subsequent explaining). We explained that, by rule, the awarding of bases must be completed first, and by correctly touching the bases during the award, the Runner negated the earlier miss. 

So, technically, a HR is a 4-base dead-ball award… and completion of the award must be allowed first before appeals can be granted. And the only landmark we have for a Runner conceding / abandoning in NFHS is the dugout (or similar DBT). 

I love your response. Thank you. To further the discussion, how do we articulate around the "must immediately return" component in the rules w/ respect to missing home plate on an out-of-the-park home run?  

8-2-5 & 8-2-6c
 

[MadMax]

6 hours ago, MadMax said:

BR hits a double. Time is granted and called. BR leaves base to trot back to give 1BC his elbow guard. Whether intentional or not, he touches (for the 1st time) 1B, and then goes back to 2B, ready to resume the game. Is this a proper retouch and correction? The defense now wants to appeal; what’s the ruling on that appeal?

 

6 hours ago, MadMax said:

BR (Catcher) hits a triple (wow! Rare!) and a CR is summoned. Time is called. The 1BC, having seen BR miss 1B, too, calls over the CR and discreetly instructs him to touch 1B, then 2B, then arrive at 3B. Is this a valid retouch and correction (by a valid sub/CR)? If the defense then wants to appeal, what’s the ruling? 

Both of these are “solved” by… 

6 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

8-2-5

The runner(s) cannot return to correct missed or improper touches/tags during Dead ball once they are on a base beyond the base-in-question. I suppose this is why, with the ball being Dead (other than on a HR), things like passing aren’t applicable. 

However, there’s nothing in the Rules prohibiting – or, more to the point, compelling us the umpires to prohibit – the Runners from attempting and going thru the motions of correcting any missed touches / improper tags. More often than not, the defensive team observes and (falsely) believes that those touches / tags were corrected; only an aware and knowledgeable team staff is going to proceed with appeals. 

So… 

6 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

how do we articulate around the "must immediately return" component in the rules w/ respect to missing home plate on an out-of-the-park home run? 

I would look at how the play at 1B upon BR is handled (by us). By letter-of-the-law, the BR can run thru 1B, with the provision to return “directly” to the base without making an attempt towards 2B (I’m paraphrasing; I’m on the road AToP). There’s no defined time, and there are countless instances where BR has taken “his sweet time” in coming back to the base. Similarly, there’s been instances wherein a BR has been safe or beaten the ball to 1B, and has been injured such that he doesn’t or cannot return “directly” to the base. Time is called. Well, he didn’t satisfy that part of the rule, did he?? And, if the (Fed) defensive team wants to appeal, why wouldn’t he be deemed Out? “He (BR) didn’t return directly! The rules say directly!” 

See where discernment is needed between “spirit of the rule” and “verbatim”?