Play at first last night - Question

[Thunderheads]

Hey everyone, 

Yesterday, ground ball to third, ... the throw causes F3 to lean "up the line" .... he catches the ball, foot on the bag, THEN, B/R ducks because of an impending collision and hits F3's arm causing the ball to come out of the glove.

I pause, think hard and fast and continue to call the runner out as the contact caused the ball to come loose, and F3 did secure the ball with his foot on the bag prior to contact.

There was very little questioning of the call (mainly the runner) ...  I did explain it to the head coach between innings, he just wanted clarification and was pefectly fine with it all.

Correct call?

Thanks ....  (don't have time to peruse the rulebook this morning)

 

[maven]

You have the rule correct. We can't assess the judgment call without video.

The definition of 'TAG' does not include the concept of 'voluntary release', only secure possession of the ball in hand or glove and contact with the base. You judged that those criteria were met prior to the runner touching the base.

If your judgment was correct, then so was the call.

[Thunderheads]

2 hours ago, maven said:

You have the rule correct. We can't assess the judgment call without video.

The definition of 'TAG' does not include the concept of 'voluntary release', only secure possession of the ball in hand or glove and contact with the base. You judged that those criteria were met prior to the runner touching the base.

If your judgment was correct, then so was the call.

Thank you sir, ... is this something I'd find under "definitions" or is there a cite with a 'comment'?

Thanks again

[ArchAngel72]

36 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

Thank you sir, ... is this something I'd find under "definitions" or is there a cite with a 'comment'?

Thanks again

Note it under the Maven said so section of the book.   I for one am honestly good with that.

😇

[maven]

The OBR definition of TAG (from 2019, but it hasn't changed):

Quote

A TAG is the action of a fielder in touching a base with his body while holding the ball securely and firmly in his hand or glove; or touching a runner with the ball, or with his hand or glove holding the ball (not including hanging laces alone), while holding the ball securely and firmly in his hand or glove. It is not a tag, however, if simultaneously or immediately following his touching a base or touching a runner, the fielder drops the ball. In establishing the validity of the tag, the fielder shall hold the ball long enough to prove that he has complete control of the ball. If the fielder has made a tag and drops the ball while in the act of making a throw following the tag, the tag shall be adjudged to have been made. For purposes of this definition any jewelry being worn by a player (e.g., necklaces, bracelets, etc.) shall not constitute a part of the player’s body.

I've bolded the relevant pieces.

For a tag play, where the fielder is tagging the runner (any context), the possession must survive the contact with the runner.

But on any play where the fielder can retire a runner by tagging a base (force play, some appeal plays, etc.), secure possession while in contact with the base is sufficient. Subsequent contact with the runner that dislodges the ball is (generally) nothing.

The exception would be the case where the contact is bang-bang, the fielder had sno-coned or otherwise barely held the ball, and the ball popped out. That could be ruled no tag, due to the lack of secure possession. But that doesn't sound like your play, Jeff.

[maven]

12 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

Note it under the Maven said so section of the book.   I for one am honestly good with that.

😇

Although I'm grateful for the sentiment, I'm no authority and politely decline to be treated as one. We all need to poke our noses in the book, as often as possible.

[Thunderheads]

3 minutes ago, maven said:

The exception would be the case where the contact is bang-bang, the fielder had sno-coned or otherwise barely held the ball, and the ball popped out. That could be ruled no tag, due to the lack of secure possession. But that doesn't sound like your play, Warren Jeff.

Thanks again ........ fixed it for you  

[Jimurray]

3 hours ago, maven said:

You have the rule correct. We can't assess the judgment call without video.

The definition of 'TAG' does not include the concept of 'voluntary release', only secure possession of the ball in hand or glove and contact with the base. You judged that those criteria were met prior to the runner touching the base.

If your judgment was correct, then so was the call.

NCAA differs. After an F3 tagged 1B and fell down which caused the ball to come out NCAA added voluntary release as proof of secure possession and said that that play was not an out. They later added "and intentional" to their definition. While "voluntary release" is used as proof they leave leeway in the definition and do not require it. NCAA does address contact with a runner but has a body control requirement where falling and losing the ball seems to be a lack of secure possession.