834k3r Posted May 15 Report Share Posted May 15 Had a Varsity doubleheader outside my home association yesterday. I had pretty good games, but there were a couple of things I'd like other Practitioners of The Craft to weigh in on: 2 out, R2 only. R2 broke for 3B. Pitcher spun to throw to 2B and realized R2 was too far away from 2B and instead threw it to 3B. Tag was applied well in advance of the runner reaching 3B. My partner (who was good, but admitted he's primarily a softball umpire) called a balk. DT coaching staff (all 4(!) of them) came unglued. Partner and I got together. I said a fake to 2B is legal, as is throwing to an unoccupied base for the purposes of retiring a runner. My partner said, "okay, you make the call." I called the runner (on 3B now) out. VT coach (very calmly, thankfully) came out and I explained my reasoning, and he said the same play happened in a tournament last weekend and it was ruled a balk. I'm convinced I was correct--but was I really correct? While behind the plate in the first game and R1/R3, I signaled to my partner (who was in C) the 1-3 rotation. I've been taught that with R1 as well as R1/R3, the rotation is still on (to say nothing of being in B rather than C). He said he was taught to be in B only with R1 only; C for all other situations with baserunners. Is that mechanic a softball mechanic that my partner was using in baseball? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noumpere Posted May 15 Report Share Posted May 15 1) Depends on what F1 did. If he stepped to second and threw to third (all in one motion, throwing across his body), it's a balk . If he stepped toward second and THEN either came off the rubber or stepped and threw to third (two separate motions; completing the feint), it's legal. 2) B or C works (C is better); different associations use different mechanics. But, it's always a rotation. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
834k3r Posted May 15 Author Report Share Posted May 15 1 minute ago, noumpere said: 1) Depends on what F1 did. If he stepped to second and threw to third (all in one motion, throwing across his body), it's a balk . If he stepped toward second and THEN either came off the rubber or stepped and threw to third (two separate motions; completing the feint), it's legal. He began a throw to 2B, but "pump faked", then distinctly stepped and threw to 3B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin_K Posted May 15 Report Share Posted May 15 3 hours ago, 834k3r said: My partner said, "okay, you make the call." I called the runner (on 3B now) out. You provided information for your partner to overturn his own call. He should be the one to make the call. Umpires should not hand bags of crap to their partners and then expect to be relieved of their disposal. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curburenthusiasm Posted May 15 Report Share Posted May 15 In two man umpiring () the base umpire(U1) should be in the following positions. A- w/ nobody on base B- w/ runners on 1st base, or 1st & 3rdC- any other time 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeeingEyeDog Posted May 15 Report Share Posted May 15 1 hour ago, Kevin_K said: You provided information for your partner to overturn his own call. He should be the one to make the call. Umpires should not hand bags of crap to their partners and then expect to be relieved of their disposal. This...right here...absolutely. Regardless of the situation whether you are allowing the call to stand or overturning the call, I HIGHLY recommend also nodding repeatedly in unison before you break your huddle to help sell whatever it is you are ultimately deciding. I'm not saying no one will complain because...oh! the umpires nodded in agreement but, it helps keep the flames down a bit. ~Dawg 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevis Posted May 15 Report Share Posted May 15 4 hours ago, 834k3r said: While behind the plate in the first game and R1/R3, I signaled to my partner (who was in C) the 1-3 rotation. I've been taught that with R1 as well as R1/R3, the rotation is still on (to say nothing of being in B rather than C). He said he was taught to be in B only with R1 only; C for all other situations with baserunners. Is that mechanic a softball mechanic that my partner was using in baseball? What your partner was doing is the 60'/closed base mechanic in LL baseball as well. (70/90 they do as everyone else has said.) So yes, I suspect that's softball bleeding in. Pregame, pregame, pregame. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Velho Posted May 15 Report Share Posted May 15 5 hours ago, noumpere said: If he stepped to second and threw to third (all in one motion, throwing across his body), it's a balk . If he stepped toward second and THEN either came off the rubber or stepped and threw to third (two separate motions; completing the feint), it's legal. For reference of the latter legal move noted 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Velho Posted May 15 Report Share Posted May 15 18 minutes ago, stevis said: What your partner was doing is the 60'/closed base mechanic in LL baseball as well. LL 60' 2 man rotation with R1 or R1-R3 is default (and BU in C with R1-R3). If inexperienced PU, may only rotate R1 but you covered that aspect... 18 minutes ago, stevis said: Pregame, pregame, pregame. ... and postgame Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBlue4u Posted May 15 Report Share Posted May 15 7 hours ago, 834k3r said: While behind the plate in the first game and R1/R3, I signaled to my partner (who was in C) the 1-3 rotation. I've been taught that with R1 as well as R1/R3, the rotation is still on (to say nothing of being in B rather than C). Generally speaking, the PU stays home with a runner or runners in scoring position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadMax Posted May 15 Report Share Posted May 15 6 hours ago, 834k3r said: R2 broke for 3B. Pitcher spun to throw to 2B and realized R2 was too far away from 2B and instead threw it to 3B. Tag was applied well in advance of the runner reaching 3B. 6 hours ago, 834k3r said: He began a throw to 2B, but "pump faked", then distinctly stepped and threw to 3B. In all codes (still), a step-and-feint towards an occupied 2B is its own legal disengagement. Once enacted, the pitcher is now a fielder, and can throw or run anywhere. It is not a Balk. The only negative effect it has is in terms of legal, counted disengagements, of which only Pro-level OBR, NCAA/NAIA, and NFHS-AZ keeps track of or aware of. So with it called a Balk, there’s a problem here… In NFHS, the call of Balk is an immediate dead ball. So, when the call was made matters. If the ball was “in the air”, and R2 was neither Out nor Safe yet (status: pending), then we have to, by “letter of the (existing) law” place R2 back at 2B. If his being tagged Out happened after the call of Balk, then that tag… never happened. Make sense? That’s one of the primary complications of NFHS Balks vs. NCAA & OBR Balks. That immediate dead ball takes precedent over status. 4 hours ago, Kevin_K said: You provided information for your partner to overturn his own call. He should be the one to make the call. Ehhh… you’re generally right, Kevin, but there’s another component of it. I could be wrong, but I’m reading this as Corey ( @834k3r) as the PU… which in NFHS makes him UIC and CC. In certain situations, the CC (or UIC) has to make that ruling or determination. Of course, in Fed, they have that wonderful deification clause that the UIC’s ruling is summary and final. So, on this situation, I can see the CC/UIC making that summary ruling. What they (the crew) should have done is go to the HC of the team against which the overruled / overturned call is going, and explain it… then make the/any signals. 4 hours ago, Kevin_K said: Umpires should not hand bags of crap to their partners and then expect to be relieved of their disposal. Heh, you mean like Joe Brinkman did on the Pine Tar Incident, when under threat of bodily harm? 😉 My first ever exposure to crew dynamics was (gross) abuse of this “make the call, take the call” system. As a neophyte, I had a PU partner who (insisted) took an appealed call off me, because he wanted an Out, and be 1 Out closer to going home. 29 minutes ago, BigBlue4u said: Generally speaking, the PU stays home with a runner or runners in scoring position. I’m with you in practical terms and (amateur game) reality, but that’s not what’s expected or taught in NCAA and Pro-level OBR. They want PUs to be “foot mobile” and execute rotations as instructed. … even on R1-R3. As @noumpere indicated, either B or C works. In 3-man, R1-R3 places the U3 in C, so I can see where an umpire, used to that system, would take position at C in 2-man with R1-R3. Myself, I’ll take B on that, but I’d be a liar if I said I never took C with R1-R3, especially after doing my first 2-man game after an entire 80+ game season of 3-man. 😵💫 As a PU partner and a Vulture, can I work with a BU setting up in C on 2-man R1-R3? Sure! As long as he (BU) makes an effort to get across the centerline for the play at 1B. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimurray Posted May 15 Report Share Posted May 15 8 hours ago, noumpere said: 2) B or C works (C is better); different associations use different mechanics. But, it's always a rotation. IMHO B is better for a steal in 2-man and Deep B is better in 4 man. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimurray Posted May 15 Report Share Posted May 15 1 hour ago, BigBlue4u said: Generally speaking, the PU stays home with a runner or runners in scoring position. Generally speaking except for R1 and R3 and a base hit except for 3-2 count with 2 out or any count with R1 going which might keep him home. What mechanics book are they teaching you from? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Man in Blue Posted May 16 Report Share Posted May 16 I'm probably doing it wrong, but I'll keep doing it as long as it works for me . . . R1 and R3, I'm going with the pitcher's "natural and easy action." In other words, with an LHP, I'm taking B. With a RHP, I'm taking C. I want to be where the pickoff is likely to go. My personal inclination is to always go C because I was taught to always be with my lead runner, but I know that wasn't exactly correct. Call me odd, but I feel I get a better look at a steal at second from C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimurray Posted May 16 Report Share Posted May 16 23 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said: I'm probably doing it wrong, but I'll keep doing it as long as it works for me . . . R1 and R3, I'm going with the pitcher's "natural and easy action." In other words, with an LHP, I'm taking B. With a RHP, I'm taking C. I want to be where the pickoff is likely to go. My personal inclination is to always go C because I was taught to always be with my lead runner, but I know that wasn't exactly correct. Call me odd, but I feel I get a better look at a steal at second from C. You are not odd, I know guys who think the same. I will try and post clips of where they did not get the better look just recently in HS playoffs tomorrow. But have you noticed where the majority of 4 man NCAA and MLB umps are? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Velho Posted May 16 Report Share Posted May 16 18 hours ago, Velho said: 19 hours ago, stevis said: Pregame, pregame, pregame. ... and postgame For @MadMax benefit: pregame is partner specific. I expect my pregame tonight with a regular partner will be "Hi, Nick. How's the kids?" 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
834k3r Posted May 16 Author Report Share Posted May 16 19 hours ago, stevis said: What your partner was doing is the 60'/closed base mechanic in LL baseball as well. (70/90 they do as everyone else has said.) So yes, I suspect that's softball bleeding in. Pregame, pregame, pregame. Here's the interesting thing. We did pre-game it and I thought we were on the same page. 18 hours ago, Velho said: LL 60' 2 man rotation with R1 or R1-R3 is default (and BU in C with R1-R3). If inexperienced PU, may only rotate R1 but you covered that aspect... ... and postgame Oh, we did...💯 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
834k3r Posted May 16 Author Report Share Posted May 16 16 hours ago, MadMax said: So, on this situation, I can see the CC/UIC making that summary ruling. What they (the crew) should have done is go to the HC of the team against which the overruled / overturned call is going, and explain it… then make the/any signals. Point taken. Thankfully the HC understood my explanation (post-call). A pre-call conversation would have been helpful. 11 hours ago, The Man in Blue said: I'm probably doing it wrong, but I'll keep doing it as long as it works for me . . . R1 and R3, I'm going with the pitcher's "natural and easy action." In other words, with an LHP, I'm taking B. With a RHP, I'm taking C. I want to be where the pickoff is likely to go. My personal inclination is to always go C because I was taught to always be with my lead runner, but I know that wasn't exactly correct. Call me odd, but I feel I get a better look at a steal at second from C. For me, I was taught and have read to be in B, because a pickoff attempt is more likely on R1 than R3. Being in C would indeed give a better look at a steal into 2B, but around these parts there usually (90%+) isn't a throw to 2B on R1 stealing because coaches want to keep R3 where he's at. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimurray Posted May 16 Report Share Posted May 16 31 minutes ago, 834k3r said: Being in C would indeed give a better look at a steal into 2B, Being in B and dropping back with the throw gives you the best look at what is usually a swipe tag. You do have to be mobile enough to get near the baseline and aware enough of a cut possibility and a play at 3B. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grayhawk Posted May 16 Report Share Posted May 16 3 minutes ago, Jimurray said: Being in B and dropping back with the throw gives you the best look at what is usually a swipe tag. You do have to be mobile enough to get near the baseline and aware enough of a cut possibility and a play at 3B. I would add that being in B is also much better to get a look at a tag when the runner over-slides the base. It's a great look when you continue toward the right field side of the bag. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noumpere Posted May 16 Report Share Posted May 16 1 hour ago, Jimurray said: Being in B and dropping back with the throw gives you the best look at what is usually a swipe tag. You do have to be mobile enough to get near the baseline and aware enough of a cut possibility and a play at 3B. And it's usually going to be F4 who performs the cut and you're more likely to be in his way (and with your back to him) if you're in B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimurray Posted May 16 Report Share Posted May 16 11 minutes ago, noumpere said: And it's usually going to be F4 who performs the cut and you're more likely to be in his way (and with your back to him) if you're in B. I've dropped back and rotated with the throw with F4 cutting right next to me. I never have been in his way. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grayhawk Posted May 16 Report Share Posted May 16 10 minutes ago, Jimurray said: I've dropped back and rotated with the throw with F4 cutting right next to me. I never have been in his way. The only way you'd be in his way is if it's an errant throw going right at you (which is why we don't turn our heads until the ball goes past us). DUCK! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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