Baserunning Obstruction

[CoachCB]

NFHS- situation:

 

Runner on 2nd Base

Ball is hit back up the middle, low linedrive to CF

 

As the runner on 2nd base is making his way towards third, the 3B trips/runs into the baserunner- knocking him down

 

The runner got up and I continued waving him home (in which he was safe), had he have been thrown out- what would have been the call?  Is he automatically awarded home for colliding with the fielder? Had I have held him at 3B, would he have directed to score - or was it in my benefit to send him either way, whether he was safe or out?

[Tborze]

21 minutes ago, CoachCB said:

NFHS- situation:

 

Runner on 2nd Base

Ball is hit back up the middle, low linedrive to CF

 

As the runner on 2nd base is making his way towards third, the 3B trips/runs into the baserunner- knocking him down

 

The runner got up and I continued waving him home (in which he was safe), had he have been thrown out- what would have been the call?  Is he automatically awarded home for colliding with the fielder? Had I have held him at 3B, would he have directed to score - or was it in my benefit to send him either way, whether he was safe or out?

The award is a minimum of one base on OBS. If the OBS occurred prior to R2 touching 3B, it would be umpire judgement to determine the significance of the OBS in order to award additional bases. 
I would recommend not sending him unless you thought he could make it safely!  

[beerguy55]

1 hour ago, CoachCB said:

Had I have held him at 3B, would he have directed to score - or was it in my benefit to send him either way, whether he was safe or out?

You need to coach to the situation, not what you think/hope the umpire will judge.

If you think that, now that he's fallen down, that he will be thrown out at home, hold him.

The risk here is, you send him and then he gets thrown out by 40 feet - the umpire - right or wrong - may use that to determine the runner would have been thrown out at home anyway.

Hold him at third and see what the umpire judges.  You can discuss with him and make your case "I was sending him until he fell...he would have made it home easily."  Ump either agrees or he doesn't.

[Velho]

39 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

Hold him at third and see what the umpire judges.  You can discuss with him and make your case "I was sending him until he fell...he would have made it home easily."  Ump either agrees or he doesn't.

Would any umpire send him home if he stayed on 3rd (with OBS happening before 3rd base)?

[noumpere]

3 minutes ago, Velho said:

Would any umpire send him home if he stayed on 3rd (with OBS happening before 3rd base)?

Maybe.

 

Where was the ball hit?  How strong / accurate was the throw back home / to the infield?    Did R2 get thrown off stride or did he get knocked to the ground?  Was the coach waving the runner at the time or holding up the stop sign or just waiting to see?

The umpire needs to not just watch the ball, but needs to watch the game.

[beerguy55]

31 minutes ago, Velho said:

Would any umpire send him home if he stayed on 3rd (with OBS happening before 3rd base)?

Why wouldn't you...two outs, single to the outfield - and let's say for the sake of argument it was not directly at an outfielder.   Except for the slowest of runners, that runner is moving on contact and the coach is sending them home - every single time...

until said runner collides with third baseman and falls to the ground...at that point they're just getting up and should just stay at third base.   I'm not sending them now, hoping the umpire gets the call right after they get thrown out.  I'm keeping him at third, safe, and hoping the ump gets the call right.

If the runner gets bumped off stride and stays on his feet I'm likely still sending him...but once he hits the ground, I'm not (unless, of course, the ball is still rolling out there to the fence).

[maven]

The penalty for OBS is to award bases so as to nullify the act of obstruction. If the umpire judged that R2 would have scored on the play without the OBS, the award would be home. If he judged that R2 would reach only 3B, that would be the award.

In the OP, R2 scored anyway. So evidently, that should have been the award. QED

[Velho]

Evidence for:

Evidence against:

 

[johnnyg08]

Very often umpires under award. You shouldn't be surprised if they keep R2 at 3B. 

I'm not saying that this is what I would do...but if I were a betting man I would be that most crews would keep R2 at 3B. 

[Velho]

FYI: to be clear, I agree with the consensus above. Simply cataloging what I come across.

Against: 

 

[Nanocoach]

I get more confused by the obstruction rule the more I research it. Specifically, if a batter-runner rounding first base wide outside the designated base path on an overthrow to second base makes contact with a fielder (F3) who is without the ball in their fielding position off the base path. If the batter-runner starts to run to second outside the base path, why would an umpire call obstruction on F3 (who hasn’t moved in the base path)?

[Jimurray]

10 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

Why wouldn't you...two outs, single to the outfield - and let's say for the sake of argument it was not directly at an outfielder.   Except for the slowest of runners, that runner is moving on contact and the coach is sending them home - every single time...

until said runner collides with third baseman and falls to the ground...at that point they're just getting up and should just stay at third base.   I'm not sending them now, hoping the umpire gets the call right after they get thrown out.  I'm keeping him at third, safe, and hoping the ump gets the call right.

If the runner gets bumped off stride and stays on his feet I'm likely still sending him...but once he hits the ground, I'm not (unless, of course, the ball is still rolling out there to the fence).

I just saw a 6A Texas HS playoff where the F9 fumbled it and they kept R2 going home. Wow, F9 had an arm, which they usually do at this level.

[Velho]

1 hour ago, Nanocoach said:

Specifically, if a batter-runner rounding first base wide outside the designated base path

It starts with there not being a base path. There never is except when a batter-runner going to first with a batted ball around the plate or when a fielder is trying to tag a runner. Otherwise, runner can go anywhere they want advancing the bases.
 

Other than playing on a batted ball, fielders are responsible for being out of the way.

 

1 hour ago, Nanocoach said:

I get more confused by the obstruction rule the more I research

It’s highly judgmental and it can feel like application is inconsistent at times, at all levels. Understanding the rules and intents can help us umpire it best when it happens to us.

[maven]

9 hours ago, Nanocoach said:

Specifically, if a batter-runner rounding first base wide outside the designated base path on an overthrow to second base makes contact with a fielder (F3) who is without the ball in their fielding position off the base path.

Two points to remember here: first, contact is neither necessary nor sufficient for hindrance. On a play where the BR can definitely take 2B on an overthrow (live ball), if he has to stop to go around F3 (no contact), that's still hindrance and OBS. And in a more common play, the BR rounds 1B on a long single (say) and bumps into F3 not paying attention. There, the BR has no reasonable chance to advance, and the contact is not hindrance (because BR cannot reasonably advance). So that wouldn't be OBS, despite significant contact.

So it's possible to have OBS without contact and to have contact without OBS. That leaves it up to the umpire to see the action and judge hindrance. 

[beerguy55]

11 hours ago, Nanocoach said:

I get more confused by the obstruction rule the more I research it. Specifically, if a batter-runner rounding first base wide outside the designated base path on an overthrow to second base makes contact with a fielder (F3) who is without the ball in their fielding position off the base path. If the batter-runner starts to run to second outside the base path, why would an umpire call obstruction on F3 (who hasn’t moved in the base path)?

Simply put, the base path doesn't matter here, the way you think it does.  The runner makes his base path, and it's up to the fielder to be out of the way.   Even if you want to simplify it a bit...let's say the runner overruns first by 15 feet and then decides to go to second...for all intents and purposes his most likely/reasonable/efficient basepath is a line from where he is right now, directly to second base.  If you're talking about the runner rounding first base, it's up to him how wide or sharp he wants to make that turn.  F3 has no real business being anywhere near the runner at this point, and certainly no business being between the runner and the next base.   Keep in mind, a runner properly running the bases from home to home runs more in a circle than a square.  The basepath is NOT a line between the bases.

[noumpere]

12 hours ago, Nanocoach said:

 If the batter-runner starts to run to second outside the base path, why would an umpire call obstruction on F3 (who hasn’t moved in the base path)?

Because the rules require us to do so.

 

If you think the rule is "wrong," that's a different discussion.

[MadMax]

It’s a very… considered?… calculated? … can’t be calculated, because that involves numbers… deliberated? … balance that we (umpires) have to make (and why our roles are organically necessary)… 

If, on the one hand, we don’t call OBS, and don’t award (advancement of) bases, then why wouldn’t a fielder try and hinder (impede, affect, etc) a passing Runner any chance possible? 

On the other hand, if we call OBS on every perceived hinderance or contact, and penalize the fielder(s) (by awarding (advancement of) bases to the Runner(s)), then why wouldn’t a Runner seek out, initiate, or feign contact any chance possible? 

Think on it… 🤔… if you (as BR) hit a base hit in front of LF (F7), but really want a double, and, “knowing” the OBS rule, you round 1B and discreetly-but-intentionally run into the back of the F3 so as to get the notice of the nearest BU… <the following is me facetiously projecting, not me as umpire> 

… is that not OBS??

… did he (F3) not just hinder me?? He’s in my way!!

… isn’t the OBS rule written to prevent contact?! There was contact!! Didn’t you see it?! You have to* call it!! 

</facetious projection> 

See the importance of this discernment and judgement? 

@noumpere mentioned this anecdote:

23 hours ago, noumpere said:

The umpire needs to not just watch the ball, but needs to watch the game.

… and I’m going to add to it, especially for “off-ball / off-play” umpires (eg. BU coming in / “pivoting” in on a base hit) – the umpire needs to not just watch “his responsibility”, but needs to watch the game. 
 

——————

*- my most-loathed term in umpiring. As soon as an evaluator or instructor issues that compulsion – have to – I have routinely seen even seasoned veteran colleagues’ whole perception change, or be affected, and it’s often not for the improvement of their skill set. It’s almost as if the compelled umpire starts… I don’t know 🤔… seeking it (whatever the action/infraction is) out. 🤨

[Velho]

10 minutes ago, MadMax said:

23 hours ago, noumpere said:

The umpire needs to not just watch the ball, but needs to watch the game.

… and I’m going to add to it, especially for “off-ball / off-play” umpires (eg. BU coming in / “pivoting” in on a base hit) – the umpire needs to not just watch “his responsibility”, but needs to watch the game. 

I'm ready!!

[Velho]

 

18 minutes ago, MadMax said:

On 5/14/2024 at 9:29 AM, noumpere said:

The umpire needs to not just watch the ball, but needs to watch the game.

… and I’m going to add to it, especially for “off-ball / off-play” umpires (eg. BU coming in / “pivoting” in on a base hit) – the umpire needs to not just watch “his responsibility”, but needs to watch the game. 

All kidding aside, I've found this the part that comes with reps and experience.

Reps - not just any reps but in a long term and focused school/camp environment. I've noticed a massive difference after taking a week long school last fall. I locked in the muscle memory of mechanics* which in turn slows the game down**

Experience - Live game action to expose the gaps and focus what you need to keep working on. All the touches on a bases loaded double, peeking at R2/F5 OBS on a grounder to F4, etc.

These provide a foundation to move up the curve with self awareness and confidence.

Always working because we'll never be perfect but we can be excellent.

 

* Never prefect of course. Still have to focus when it gets loose.

** System 1 vs System 2 if your familiar with Kahneman

[beerguy55]

44 minutes ago, MadMax said:

Think on it… 🤔… if you (as BR) hit a base hit in front of LF (F7), but really want a double, and, “knowing” the OBS rule, you round 1B and discreetly-but-intentionally run into the back of the F3 so as to get the notice of the nearest BU… <the following is me facetiously projecting, not me as umpire> 

… is that not OBS??

… did he (F3) not just hinder me?? He’s in my way!!

… isn’t the OBS rule written to prevent contact?! There was contact!! Didn’t you see it?! You have to* call it!! 

</facetious projection> 

See the importance of this discernment and judgement? 

This I think is the biggest piece.

At least as far as the fielder is concerned you only need to judge hindrance, his intent doesn't matter.  And then you need to judge what would have happened without said hindrance.  A little harder...needs some experience...and common sense.

But you do have to judge the runner's intent - because, yes, more savvy baserunners are going to try accidentally on purpose create OBS.

Which is why the guidance given above is so important - watch the game and use your head.

If you can't determine what would have happened without hindrance, that should come with time and experience.

If you can't determine if the runner was hindered, that better come with time and experience or you're going to hate your job.

If you can't determine when a runner truly went out of his way to collide with a fielder you may lack the judgment necessary to do this job.