Retrofitting an All Star System 7

[MadMax]

5 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

I do know someone that took the pads off their S7 and took a shot he didn't like, so he put the pads back on.

From the read of it, he took the sizing/contact pads (or pods) out. The business part of the CP is that TPU-EVA foam, as thin as it is. That 1/8 inch is all that’s needed, to absorb the initial impact. 
However, what your buddy felt was the CP slapping against his own body, because there was a gap, or a void, between that TPU-EVA foam and his bodyframe. 

It’s why Force3 Defender masks must be worn tight (not loose, like other TMs). If it’s loose, then the impacting energy just drives the mask across that space and into your skull / face, with the springs never being engaged. 

The Force3 UnEqual CP suffers from the same problem… the “magic” Kevlar is just a super-awesome, energy-absorbing fabric (thus, remarkably thin), but lacks the structure – sizing foam – behind it, and between it and your body. Thus, the mass + energy of a baseball drives the entire mass of the CP against your skin and body frame. 

Ever see how tight pro & collegiate catchers wear their (advanced) CPs? I’m not arguing against hard-shell umpire CPs, but those catchers have the right idea. 

[Velho]

46 minutes ago, MadMax said:

It’s why Force3 Defender masks must be worn tight (not loose, like other TMs). If it’s loose, then the impacting energy just drives the mask across that space and into your skull / face, with the springs never being engaged. 

Great point and timely. My special sale mask just came in the mail today. I wouldn't have thought about this.

[DerekGDS]

3 hours ago, MadMax said:

However, what your buddy felt was the CP slapping against his own body, because there was a gap, or a void, between that TPU-EVA foam and his bodyframe. 

@MadMax Are you sure those pads aren't an open cell foam on the S7? (the removable ones)

Typically in a modern foam stack you'll see either 2 or 3 layers depending on the purpose of the CP or based on specific areas. There are numerous types but I'd say the most common is going to be EVA + an open cell foam for the cushioning against your body. Closed cell could be used but it is more dense and heavier.

In this example, you have specialty closed cell foam, EVA foam and then an open cell foam.

5 hours ago, MadMax said:

The Force3 UnEqual CP suffers from the same problem… the “magic” Kevlar is just a super-awesome, energy-absorbing fabric (thus, remarkably thin), but lacks the structure – sizing foam – behind it, and between it and your body. Thus, the mass + energy of a baseball drives the entire mass of the CP against your skin and body frame. 

I'm curious about the use of Kevlar in this application. I wonder if it's primarily for marketing purposes or if there have been studies or lab tests that demonstrate its effectiveness. Would the thin piece of Kevlar actually reduce peak force and energy absorption compared to the same application without it? Or would more substantial use of Kevlar be necessary to make it an effective solution?

[MadMax]

6 minutes ago, DerekGDS said:

In this example, you have specialty closed cell foam, EVA foam and then an open cell foam.

Yup, 👆🏼 that is a laminate foam “stack” as you call it… or “sandwich”, as @wolfe_man teases us with. However, on the System7 (AKA CPU4K), instead of fusing the layers together, and then encasing them, they divided the layers into their individual components. The TPU-EVA foam is itself encased, and then directly attached to the carapace plates. Then, the pods are constructed and placed strategically within… this promotes airflow and reduces weight & bulk. Surely, those pods should involve open-cell “sizing” foam… but they don’t, according to @grayhawk’s autopsy. Steve reported that each pod is a “baseplate” of closed cell foam, and then a pile of technical microfiber fabric… like a handkerchief folded multiple times to create volume. So, in this case, All-Star cheated, or “cut a corner”, (over)using that fabric instead of making an actual laminate of closed cell & open cell foam. 

They rectified this in the Cobalt (AKA CPU5K), by using finger / egg-carton foam. That… that is the epitome of “sizing foam”. It takes up volume with minimal weight and contact. But here, too, that egg carton foam ain’t doin’ the bulk of the work; instead, it’s once again the TPU-EVA foam. 

29 minutes ago, DerekGDS said:

I'm curious about the use of Kevlar in this application. I wonder if it's primarily for marketing purposes or if there have been studies or lab tests that demonstrate its effectiveness.

The tests were conducted, and the metrics were compelling enough to JK to convince him to bring UnEqual Technologies into Force3 so as to produce the UnEqual CP. That’s why the V1 has the ≠ symbol on it. The force(s) were reduced enough to warrant a completed unit that was lower profile than any other CP on the market at that time (other than, perhaps, the DaviShield). However, that first version (V1) had two fatal flaws (cost aside): 1) the absence of substantial plastic plates as “blast plates” to give the Kevlar weave structure, and 2) to simplify and optimize the use of Kevlar, the CP was produced “one size fits most”. Because of this, and the wide variety of body shapes and sizes that wore it, there would be improper fits on some, and gaps between the unit and the wearer’s body that would allow a baseball to drive the CP against the wearer, and it would register as a painful, or “felt” slap, on others. 

This is Force3’s mask pad. Their CP is much the same, but instead of leather, they encase the unit in neoprene, and instead of that outer closed-cell foam, there are wafer-thin-but-there HDPE blast plates, segmented, of course. 

Force3 trades physical-chemical properties for volume and density… which Wilson heavily relies upon… 

… 

… and that MLB logo on the front, and their shills in Pro umpire staffs (no, JW isn’t one of them) to sap beaucoup dollars out of naive, impressionable umpires. 

[wolfe_man]

10 hours ago, DerekGDS said:

Typically in a modern foam stack you'll see either 2 or 3 layers depending on the purpose of the CP or based on specific areas. There are numerous types but I'd say the most common is going to be EVA + an open cell foam for the cushioning against your body. Closed cell could be used but it is more dense and heavier.

In this example, you have specialty closed cell foam, EVA foam and then an open cell foam.

 

I don't have an issue with still using these foam "stacks" or "sandwiches" but at least have them aerated to create more airflow and quicker drying times between wear please.  I like that we're using the new foams and all that now, but the old way (and foams) did work well in terms of protection, so we're not trying to reinvent the wheel here but improve upon it. 

The two biggest things that most of us are trying to replicate are  1.) a lower profile (read as thinner & more athletic and less linebacker-looking) and then... 2.) cooler with more airflow while wearing.  It was only in the low 80's here in OH last night and a 3 hour playoff game had me wet clean-through to the skin.  I'll trade stand-off distance and new foams for more airflow and a little lighter weight CP any day. 

I agree with Max in that the 1/8" TPU-EVA foam provides enough padding when combined with the blast plates as long as the CP is worn tightly.  I had zero issues when wearing the F3 as long as I had kept it tight.  If you let it get loose, you will "feel" those impacts more for sure.  The same would be true for any CP that's thin.  Wear it snug and lock those harnesses down to keep it that way! 

[DerekGDS]

13 minutes ago, wolfe_man said:

aerated to create more airflow

Yes, this is just for prototyping! Moving forward, the vast majority of our CPs will be die cut for ventilation. Beyond that it's also figuring out the right textiles to improve thermal management but baselayers, etc. will always impact this.

9 hours ago, MadMax said:

Steve reported that each pod is a “baseplate” of closed cell foam, and then a pile of technical microfiber fabric… like a handkerchief folded multiple times to create volume

Quite interesting, never would have anticipated that!

[wolfe_man]

On 5/15/2024 at 5:53 PM, grayhawk said:

Small update. Drilled out the rivets. Here is the fabric that is connected to the outer shell. Need to give it a good cleaning and try to remove the rust (CLR maybe?). Once clean, I'll reattach with Chicago screws

I would caution against CLR here too, it's pretty caustic and may damage the fibers on your CP jacket.  Maybe do something softer and a bit more "elbow grease" involved instead.

To me, the pic reminds me exactly of what catchers wear - with the addition of their raised areas with segmented plates of course.  It made me start daydreaming/wondering when (if ever) that umpires will be able to wear their CP outside of their shirts again.  We used to hold the raft out in front of us, so why not move to a color-coordinated vest that offers the same protection but can be worn outside of the shirt for better airflow like a catcher does?  Perhaps I'm not explaining myself clearly, but in my head I see a nicely-designed and crafted chest protector with sculpted features that would look exceptional.  I'm not talking about having a Herculean, Batman or Superman look here, but one that offers a flattering and a complimentary look to any umpire physique.  If you did it right, it would theoretically look aesthetically pleasing on any/most umpire(s), offer better cooling opportunities - and still not be considered as flashy and detract from the professional appearance or from the role of the umpire.  I know this is fantasy, but we may live long enough to see outside chest protectors again someday... but we will never will if we don't start with a dream.

[Maineac]

2 hours ago, wolfe_man said:

It made me start daydreaming/wondering when (if ever) that umpires will be able to wear their CP outside of their shirts again.  We used to hold the raft out in front of us, so why not move to a color-coordinated vest that offers the same protection but can be worn outside of the shirt for better airflow like a catcher does?  Perhaps I'm not explaining myself clearly, but in my head I see a nicely-designed and crafted chest protector with sculpted features that would look exceptional.  I'm not talking about having a Herculean, Batman or Superman look here, but one that offers a flattering and a complimentary look to any umpire physique.  If you did it right, it would theoretically look aesthetically pleasing on any/most umpire(s), offer better cooling opportunities - and still not be considered as flashy and detract from the professional appearance or from the role of the umpire.  I know this is fantasy, but we may live long enough to see outside chest protectors again someday... but we will never will if we don't start with a dream.

Dream no more. Before I retired, law enforcement officers started going to these. External carriers for ballistic panels. They were great. Hot days you could just open the sides (Velcro or zippers) and let some cool air in. Imagine doing that between innings. They’re made to match the uniform shirt underneath as you can see. Don’t know why this couldn’t be done with just the front having a pocket and a breathable vest on the back to keep it in place. 

[wolfe_man]

11 minutes ago, Maineac said:

Dream no more. Before I retired, law enforcement officers started going to these. External carriers for ballistic panels. They were great. Hot days you could just open the sides (Velcro or zippers) and let some cool air in. Imagine doing that between innings. They’re made to match the uniform shirt underneath as you can see. Don’t know why this couldn’t be done with just the front having a pocket and a breathable vest on the back to keep it in place. 

 

Yes, that is exactly what I'm talking about!  Something that still doesn't draw attention, can blend in with any uniform shirt style and is much cooler!

For the record, THANK YOU for your service.  I appreciate all of the men and women who will choose to pursue public service, but especially those wiling to serve as police in today's society. 

[DerekGDS]

@wolfe_man I'm glad I didn't read this at 11pm you would have had my head spinning until 4am digesting this.

I've always approached this from a single solution angle, trying to combine the shirt, base layer, and protection into one unit. However, when we crunch the numbers, it just doesn't add up on our end. This solution would be far more costly than your standard CP. So, we've broken it down to focus on creating a functional, wearable base layer. Now, this concept isn't entirely new - Adams took a shot at it a few years back. The real challenge for us lies in taking this idea, finding the right balance of protection, and developing specialized fabrics that can manage moisture, absorb impact, and keep the wearer cool.

When it comes to external protection, I think we're looking at a whole different set of issues. It's not just about the design hurdles; we also have to consider how well it will be received and whether it aligns with the guidelines set by the relevant associations, governing bodies and old men sitting behind desks. While everyone here seems receptive to fresh ideas and innovation, progress in this industry tends to be gradual, and early adopters are a rare breed.

[wolfe_man]

16 minutes ago, DerekGDS said:

@wolfe_man I'm glad I didn't read this at 11pm you would have had my head spinning until 4am digesting this.

I've always approached this from a single solution angle, trying to combine the shirt, base layer, and protection into one unit. However, when we crunch the numbers, it just doesn't add up on our end. This solution would be far more costly than your standard CP. So, we've broken it down to focus on creating a functional, wearable base layer. Now, this concept isn't entirely new - Adams took a shot at it a few years back. The real challenge for us lies in taking this idea, finding the right balance of protection, and developing specialized fabrics that can manage moisture, absorb impact, and keep the wearer cool.

When it comes to external protection, I think we're looking at a whole different set of issues. It's not just about the design hurdles; we also have to consider how well it will be received and whether it aligns with the guidelines set by the relevant associations, governing bodies and old men sitting behind desks. While everyone here seems receptive to fresh ideas and innovation, progress in this industry tends to be gradual, and early adopters are a rare breed.

LOL I hear you and understand you completely.  Change takes time, especially so in this area of officiating.  But there is hope!  We now have umpires accepting coach helmets/skull caps as normal wear behind the plate, whereas in the past it would have been frowned upon. 

I think the area probably most receptive to change would be the summer ball tournaments and perhaps Little League.  These groups are in need of umpires and don't necessarily care how you look as long as you can take games and keep the coaches and parents off their necks for the most part.  I think you could make something for these that would be accepted the easiest. For example, I had a friend that always talked to tourney directors and got approval to wear officials shorts on the bases on hot days, but that would have never been approved in college or HS baseball. 

I'm sure we are years away from this change, but I guess I'm forward-thinking on this one.  At the very least, I'd like to kick-start a few brains into thinking about this possible change and hopefully get some creative thoughts beginning.

@grayhawk sorry to hi-jack the thread.  We're still with you on the journey getting your AS System 7 retro-fitted and re-newed!   Keep giving us the details as you find new things and overcome existing challenges!

[The Man in Blue]

6 hours ago, DerekGDS said:

When it comes to external protection, I think we're looking at a whole different set of issues. It's not just about the design hurdles; we also have to consider how well it will be received and whether it aligns with the guidelines set by the relevant associations, governing bodies and old men sitting behind desks. While everyone here seems receptive to fresh ideas and innovation, progress in this industry tends to be gradual, and early adopters are a rare breed.

So . . . you're saying it will be available in navy? 😁

 

I mean, we spend $70-$90 for a pair of BASE pants and another $70-$90 for PLATE pants . . . Buying a second "shirt" for this makes far more sense.

[DerekGDS]

40 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

you're saying it will be available in navy?

Our CX inbox would look like this:

• Can you make this in pink?
• Can you make this in cream?
• Can you make this in camo?
• Can you make me a one off custom color?
• Can you make this in the vertical stripe style?

I think the base layers is a better route. Black, Powder Blue, Navy maybe some other options. But i digress I've hijacked this thread long enough!

[grayhawk]

My current line of thinking: The white foam that was already in the pads is 1/4 foam. EVA or closed cell - don't know how to tell the difference, is similar enough to the ShockTec foam that I don't see any reason to spend the $80 for new foam. Why not just remove the extra fabric and sew it back up? Seems like a much easier solution. I'm just waiting for the 5mm Chicago screws to arrive.

BUT - I still have to figure out how to make the shoulders lower profile while maintaining safety.

[ump7tony]

On 5/22/2024 at 4:50 PM, grayhawk said:

My current line of thinking: The white foam that was already in the pads is 1/4 foam. EVA or closed cell - don't know how to tell the difference, is similar enough to the ShockTec foam that I don't see any reason to spend the $80 for new foam. Why not just remove the extra fabric and sew it back up? Seems like a much easier solution. I'm just waiting for the 5mm Chicago screws to arrive.

BUT - I still have to figure out how to make the shoulders lower profile while maintaining safety.

@grayhawk .. I've modified/built many Cps for myself and other local umpires. My experience has been that manufacturers do not spend money on "extra fabric" unless it's important to the function of the CP. That fabric provides channels for air to flow between the CP and the body. Also, it provides impact cushioning between the firmer padding and the body.  So removing it will compromise those performance attributes. Wearing the CP tight will help reduce the "slapping" against your skin, but will not address reduced airflow. Neither will be fatal flaws,  but there will be an effect.  My advice...try different things until you find what works for you. 

[grayhawk]

4 hours ago, ump7tony said:

@grayhawk .. I've modified/built many Cps for myself and other local umpires. My experience has been that manufacturers do not spend money on "extra fabric" unless it's important to the function of the CP. That fabric provides channels for air to flow between the CP and the body. Also, it provides impact cushioning between the firmer padding and the body.  So removing it will compromise those performance attributes. Wearing the CP tight will help reduce the "slapping" against your skin, but will not address reduced airflow. Neither will be fatal flaws,  but there will be an effect.  My advice...try different things until you find what works for you. 

Thanks for the tips Tony. The thing about the System 7 is that it's a tank from the ground up. I know I'm sacrificing a bit of protectiveness by making it lower profile, but I'm willing to do that since the profile is something that I will benefit from every time I wear it. I may get that magic shot in the wrong place, but I suspect I won't get injured wearing my modified version. The central channel provides a lot of airflow without the extra fabric. I'm unveiling it in the next post.

[grayhawk]

Cue the reveal music. I am nearly done, and the only thing I still need to do is have my fiance sew up the seams in the pads. I have replaced every rivet (44 in total) with Chicago screws. I added 8 more in the shoulder area, and removed the "grayhawk mod" since it's no longer needed. I cut the seams of the pads and removed the 3 layers of fabric inside and kept the white EVA foam. I kept the shoulder padding intact and will open those up to take a look if I feel the need later on.

Probably the most significant change is in how the shoulder plates attach to the main rig. I removed the old adjustable strapping and the gap plate completely. I then used seat belt fabric and Chicago screws to attach the shoulder plates directly to the plate that protects the collar bone. I overlapped the two plates so as to reduce the gap as much as possible. There is still some "flex" to allow me to throw balls back to the pitcher when needed. I am VERY pleased with how this turned out. I look much more like a quarterback as opposed to the linebacker look with the stock version.

[834k3r]

20 hours ago, grayhawk said:

Cue the reveal music. I am nearly done, and the only thing I still need to do is have my fiance sew up the seams in the pads. I have replaced every rivet (44 in total) with Chicago screws. I added 8 more in the shoulder area, and removed the "grayhawk mod" since it's no longer needed. I cut the seams of the pads and removed the 3 layers of fabric inside and kept the white EVA foam. I kept the shoulder padding intact and will open those up to take a look if I feel the need later on.

Probably the most significant change is in how the shoulder plates attach to the main rig. I removed the old adjustable strapping and the gap plate completely. I then used seat belt fabric and Chicago screws to attach the shoulder plates directly to the plate that protects the collar bone. I overlapped the two plates so as to reduce the gap as much as possible. There is still some "flex" to allow me to throw balls back to the pitcher when needed. I am VERY pleased with how this turned out. I look much more like a quarterback as opposed to the linebacker look with the stock version.

Nice! Do you have before photos with you wearing it to show the reduction in bulk?

[grayhawk]

36 minutes ago, 834k3r said:

Nice! Do you have before photos with you wearing it to show the reduction in bulk?

[grayhawk]

Here’sa good comparison with the jersey over the CP before and after. A friend wanted me to retrofit his so the before picture is with his on. It gives a good look on how much lower profile it is after the retrofit. 

[umpstu]

1 hour ago, grayhawk said:

Here’sa good comparison with the jersey over the CP before and after. A friend wanted me to retrofit his so the before picture is with his on. It gives a good look on how much lower profile it is after the retrofit. 

Good job,, Steve.