Retrofitting an All Star System 7

[concertman1971]

On 4/30/2024 at 4:13 PM, grayhawk said:

Here is some padding that I found that seems to be protective and reasonably priced:

https://shocktec.com/product/shocktec-air2gel-lightweight-impact-protection-products/

Would be interested to know what the weight (lb/sqft) is of this product. Also the breathability (or lack thereof) of the "gel" may retain a bit of heat/

[grayhawk]

Just now, concertman1971 said:

Would be interested to know what the weight (lb/sqft) is of this product. Also the breathability (or lack thereof) of the "gel" may retain a bit of heat/

I'm thinking the AirGel would be better than the Gel Max Protect.

[concertman1971]

1 minute ago, grayhawk said:

Jose? Thighpro?

YESSSIR!!! ThighPro it is. And I cant wait to change in the warehouse they have. Hope there are 3 chairs this time!

[grayhawk]

Just now, concertman1971 said:

YESSSIR!!! ThighPro it is. And I cant wait to change in the warehouse they have. Hope there are 3 chairs this time!

I was there last Tuesday and there were three chairs. Since I'm the crew chief, I will take it upon myself to sweep the floor! Gotta take care of the crew!

[umpstu]

17 hours ago, grayhawk said:

Mainly to make it slimmer, but it's good to know that the pads are still available.

How much slimmer can you make the appearance of the S7? It's just bulky. But man is  it a protective chest protector. If I wasn't a gear whore I would probably still have the S7 in my selection. It did rub my neck raw while wearing it, but it was a bad ass.

[grayhawk]

8 minutes ago, umpstu said:

How much slimmer can you make the appearance of the S7? It's just bulky. But man is  it a protective chest protector. If I wasn't a gear whore I would probably still have the S7 in my selection. It did rub my neck raw while wearing it, but it was a bad ass.

I think it can be made much slimmer, while still retaining its badassness. I aim to find out.

[wolfe_man]

3 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

I think it can be made much slimmer, while still retaining its badassness. I aim to find out.

And we're all eagerly along for the ride with you!

[grayhawk]

I made this video to show what's going on with the S7 and my efforts to retrofit. I cut open one of the pads to find out what was inside, and I also received samples from ShockTec and I go over my thoughts. I'm thinking that the Chicago screws will need to be M5 at least? If I screw the pad right into the fabric connected to the shell, then that would be the lowest profile I can get it. Anyway, let me know your thoughts @MadMax & @wolfe_man (or others!):

 

[wolfe_man]

3 hours ago, grayhawk said:

I made this video to show what's going on with the S7 and my efforts to retrofit. I cut open one of the pads to find out what was inside, and I also received samples from ShockTec and I go over my thoughts. I'm thinking that the Chicago screws will need to be M5 at least? If I screw the pad right into the fabric connected to the shell, then that would be the lowest profile I can get it. Anyway, let me know your thoughts @MadMax & @wolfe_man (or others!):

I would recommend trying the 1/8" gel paired with the 1/4" air-to-gel (foam?) pad to create a 3/8" sandwich.  You'd get the shock absorption from the gel giving you less impact felt to your torso with the air-to-gel pad giving you more rigid stand-off distance.  At 3/8", that'd still give you plenty of room to re-add the netting that All-Star used to hold it all in place if you wanted it.  Maybe put the gel on the outside closest to your chest if possible for less impact transfer to you.  For your arms, I'd go with just the 1/4" air-to-gel foam pad. 

I'd think about segmented padding too while you're at it.  Instead of one large pad for chest and sholders, try creating a few separate ones with some gaps between to help promote airflow and cooling.  I'm not talking big gaps, but maybe 1/2" or so between pads to allow more airflow to help cool and keep you drier hopefully.  I'd try to put one between shoulders and arm plates, as well as create at least two different sized chest pad jackets/sandwiches.  Many times, we've gotten used to one large pad jacket like a Gold or Douglas, when I think there's better ways of doing it that'll help keep us cooler, lower profile and just as safe.  The pad is only there to absorb the impact, the plastic plates do the stopping... so we need to make some adaptations to our thinking and provide better airflow which should hopefully keep us a bit cooler on the plate!

I'm totally down for rivets or screws for making the foam permanent to the body also. I'm not sure which size that you'd need though as I normally do the trial & error method until I found what works best for my situation.   As a rule, I don't take my padding off and wash it as a rule, so I like it being secured in place so it won't move and compromise my safety.  I do spray mine down with a cleaner & disinfectant (Odo-Ban) frequently so there's no stink.

I wore this CP as my main CP last year and had the same issue with the side pieces sticking out and being noticeable through shirts.  This was the biggest reason I moved on from it.  I think you can try adding a strap underneath (or possibly over them?) the plates where you try to keep the CP more curved to your torso after using a heat gun on it some to mold it better.   If nothing else, get it hot and put it around something that'll help it mold more curved to your sizing and shape and then strap it in place.  It'd be nice if you could keep it that way for a while too until it gets really set into the plate's memory.

I am not a fan of wings on my CP's.  Either make the main chest plate wide enough to accommodate my chest size - or - I'll take a gamble without them being on all of mine.  Anything that moves that easily isn't real protection anyhow.  And we all know that they sometimes they can get in the way when we try to throw baseballs out to the pitcher when they flap back and forth on our CP as we move our arms & shoulders.  Yes, I know it's a risk without them, but there has to be a better way than to put wings on a CP!  I'm not a bird, I'm an umpire - no wings!

I'm excited to keep seeing updates and hearing what you choose to proceed with and finish on your masterpiece.

[grayhawk]

Thanks @wolfe_man. I actually was thinking of segmented padding, giving nice airflow without sacrificing too much in the way of safety. Your idea to sandwich (mmm, saaaandwich) the 1/8" gel onto the 1/4" air2gel is intriguing. It does make for a whole lot more sewing if I'm using the existing fabric (or any fabric) to encapsulate the padding.

13 hours ago, wolfe_man said:

I'd try to put one between shoulders and arm plates, as well as create at least two different sized chest pad jackets/sandwiches. 

Not sure where you are going with this. Can you elaborate?

[MadMax]

15 hours ago, wolfe_man said:

I would recommend trying the 1/8" gel paired with the 1/4" air-to-gel (foam?) pad to create a 3/8" sandwich.

 

19 hours ago, grayhawk said:

I cut open one of the pads to find out what was inside,

What you’re/we’re missing is an (exaggerated) open-cell, lattice, or sizing foam. See that “egg-carton”, finger-foam on the Cobalt’s pad pods? That’s the material needed. Any closed cell or gel foam does the job of energy absorption. However, what creates the “comfort” factor is the body contact between the CP and the wearer’s body. 

Crude upholstery foam – what Wilson and Douglas use – satisfies the three basic requirements of a CP’s foam. While it satisfies them, there are no additional benefits. None. Nothing but detriments, ie. “hot”, “heavy”, “bulky”, “doesn’t breathe”, etc. Now, on the System7 (AKA CPU4000), All-Star itself cheated (a little bit). They used a TPU-EVA foam (similar or simpler than D3O… it’s that perforated / holed material) as the main jacket, and then Velcro’d on those pad pods. The pad pods are built around that closed cell foam you revealed, and then they lapped that technical mesh fabric to act as sizing foam. Good intention, slip-shod execution. 

To the System7’s credit, it has the best, most comprehensive plastic (ABS) carapace shell in the business. The thing is the rhinoceros beetle of CPs. Those carapace plates are the first layer of absorption, and work with that TPU-EVA foam jacket. Aside from replacing the corroded rivets, you really don’t need to replace any of the plates or foam jacket. There might be too much “sizing foam” on the underside of the shoulder pauldrons, and you did point out that that the ailettes (gap protectors) protrude “up” too much… those can certainly be swapped out for flatter ones (think: Schutt-Adams, or Douglas), but outright removal will, I think, lessen the CPs protectiveness. You already resolved one of its nuisance flaws with your outrigger straps. 

While the gel is going to give the best energy absorption for the least amount of volume, the detriment of that gel is ventilation / breathability. As in, none. So that forces you to do a segmented / pods approach. For that, you don’t need both the gel and the air2gel… you just need one, laminated to a lattice sizing foam, and encased in a technical mesh fabric. 

[wolfe_man]

8 hours ago, grayhawk said:

Thanks @wolfe_man. I actually was thinking of segmented padding, giving nice airflow without sacrificing too much in the way of safety. Your idea to sandwich (mmm, saaaandwich) the 1/8" gel onto the 1/4" air2gel is intriguing. It does make for a whole lot more sewing if I'm using the existing fabric (or any fabric) to encapsulate the padding.

Not sure where you are going with this. Can you elaborate?

I just meant if you do segmented pads, I'd try to have a break (gap) between where the shoulders meet the chest - and also where the arms meet the shoulders.  If I ever re-do a pad jacket, then that is what I'm planning to do to try to create a more breathable, air-flowing unit.  I think you want to break up those really large pads into several smaller segments with channels/gaps between them to promote better airflow in hopes of more cooling felt by the wearer. 

[grayhawk]

5 hours ago, MadMax said:

you just need one, laminated to a lattice sizing foam, and encased in a technical mesh fabric. 

Can you expand on this? When you say laminated, what does that mean? Is the lattice sizing foam the part that is riveted to the plastic plates?

[MadMax]

1 hour ago, grayhawk said:

When you say laminated, what does that mean?

👆🏼 that is laminate foam. I’d argue, the best laminate foam on the CP market. The topside is the body-contact side, the bottom is the outer side, which adheres (terribly, granted) via adhesive Velcro to the inside of the carapace plates. 

The innermost material is a lattice mesh, then a MTS (moisture transport system / surface) membrane, then the “magic” D3O, last an outer double-skin of lattice mesh. 

This laminate foam is what makes the “original” Schutt XV the best functioning CP on the market, IMExO. Here’s what they used in the AiR Flex I & II, the XV’s predecessors: 

On the left is the sizing foam (grey) laminated to a very thin sheet of PVC, and encased in CoolMax MTS fabric. Good attempt, but not quite a performance system. Schutt really struck gold (ha!) with D3O. D3O is a semi-viscous, mesothermic (more like, mutathermic) foam, meaning that when energy – ie. abrupt, acute heat – is applied to it, its molecular structure changes, or mutates, and it arrests that energy, retards it, and then recovers its shape in a (relatively) gradual fashion. Schutt brokered a partnership with D3O to trial it in their football helmets; they were only able to employ it in the first two-to-three batches of Schutt XV baseball CPs. And, as soon as Schutt passed the XV to their subsidiary, Adams, they lost the ability (license and permission) to use D3O. As such, they used a “generic” TPU-EVA foam from then on. 

Several companies have picked up on this, and are using TPU-EVA foams as the primary matrix in a foam laminate (of course, Douglas and Wilson are not). 

Force3 went down an entirely different rabbit hole. Instead of using a TPU-EVA foam, JK was sold on UnEqual Technologies’ use of Kevlar. Kevlar is a fabric, not a foam, but it has better tensile strength than steel, ounce for ounce. As such, it has incredible energy absorption properties, but zero volume. There needs to be some volume present so as to hold a shape and to lessen (or prevent) the carapace plate from slapping upon the body. So this is what Force3 does: 

Now, that photo is their mask pads, but it’s the same principle. On the CP, instead of the outer closed-cell bumper, they use a sheet of HDPE as a “blast plate”, and encase it all in a lycra-neoprene skin (neoprene is non-UV permeable; UV destroys Kevlar). 

1 hour ago, grayhawk said:

the part that is riveted to the plastic plates?

Ideally, nothing is riveted to the carapace plates. The rivets, if used at all, join the carapace plates together, using splines of elastic, nylon, and vinyl, like ligaments & tendons. I (and others, like @wolfe_man and @The Short Umpire) favor Chicago screws because you can reposition the plates and splines to achieve a much better fit per wearer. Enough of the differently sized units (Wilson! Champion!), or the One Size Fits Most (All-Star, Schutt). 

Are you familiar with Force3 Ultimate shin guards? That’s a near-ideal construction. The Kevlar is jacketed in vinyl, and it is riveted to the carapace plates. Then, a pillow/cushion of squishy, breathable sizing foam is Velcro-secured inside that, and conforms to your actual shin and knee. What would make this perfect? Glad you asked! … If the shin plate was divided into overlapping sections, able to extend or contract to exact size needed, and then secured with Chicago screws. Upper (knee) padding completely separate from lower (ankle) padding. A company would never have to produce 2-4 different sizes of shinguards again. Ain’t world-changing. 

EDIT: I forgot! Yes, you should not rivet the pad vest to the plates. So how to do it? Wilson uses (and patented!) Velcro tabs. Because they patented them (at the time, since expired), it knocked Riddell and All-American out of the market. Douglas had to stick (ha!) to Velcro facing. Schutt used Velcro facing (terribly). There are several solutions you could look at… I’ve been advising guys to do velcro loops thru slots. Roughly similar to velcro tabs without permanently mapping and stitching Velcro tabs to the pad vest, which increases cost and complexity, and defeats resizing. 

Edited May 10, 2024 by MadMax
Added paragraph.

[grayhawk]

@MadMax, are you suggesting this foam might be better than the ShockTec foam?

https://gamebreaker.com/shop/d3o-6mm-mesh-sheet-xti/

 

[MadMax]

4 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

are you suggesting this foam might be better than the ShockTec foam?

No, not necessarily. They’re all different flavors of TPU-EVA foam, and for “our” purposes, the differences are going to be measured by guys in lab coats and using computer simulations, with no bearing on us. 

I’m impressed and encouraged that D3O is now offering their trademark foam “loose”. Since its inception, D3O would partner and supply their foam to other product manufacturers. Team Wendy acts much the same way with their Zorbium, and WindPact with their CrashCloud air bladders. 

It would come down to cost. One big benefit with both D3O and ShockTec, being TPU-EVA foams, is they are hydrophobic – they shed water instantly. Shot with those holes – or pre-cut slots, ahem @Cavalier1948 – there’s a dramatic increase in surface area to wick and evaporate moisture, there’s a weight reduction, and there’s no loss or compromise in energy absorption. 

Eat that Wilson and your bed mattress memory foam!!!

[grayhawk]

18 minutes ago, MadMax said:

Eat that Wilson and your bed mattress memory foam!!!

Whoa, don't be dissin' the Wilson memory foam pads. I've used those exclusively in my Nike Ti for years and have had excellent results, even after taking some wicked shots.

[Umpiresrock74]

On 5/1/2024 at 8:41 AM, wolfe_man said:

@grayhawk  have you considered just using the existing Cobalt padding as a replacement for your System 7?  I would think it'd be a closer fit and it's only $49.99 direct from All-Star plus $9.99 S&H.   Leave the middle channel open so heat can escape when putting the new pads on via Velcro.

https://all-starsports.com/collections/ump-chest-protectors/products/cobalt-umpire-chest-protector-replacement-pad-set

Finally, drill out your rivets and then buy some 1/4" black Chicago screws and you should be in business!   Put a bit of LocTite on the screws as you put them in place so they don't back out over time (unless you want them to at some point).

It would probably take less than 45 minutes to do the entire thing from start-to-finish.  A complete retrofit on this CP would only cost you maybe $75 if you do it yourself versus $160+ at other places.  Plus, you'd have the pride factor of knowing you did it yourself.

@grayhawkTo wolf man’s point, yes you could probably put it together for $75 if no sewing is involved. I will add this. If you don’t have the right tools to do the job it’s going to be a pain in the butt… from experience.

[Umpiresrock74]

On 5/9/2024 at 9:46 PM, grayhawk said:

Whoa, don't be dissin' the Wilson memory foam pads. I've used those exclusively in my Nike Ti for years and have had excellent results, even after taking some wicked shots.

Wilson memory foam is awful. The whole pad is awful, it’s hot and bulky. Compared to our pad our pad is thinner and based on customer reviews more protective. 

[grayhawk]

1 hour ago, Umpiresrock74 said:

Wilson memory foam is awful. The whole pad is awful, it’s hot and bulky. Compared to our pad our pad is thinner and based on customer reviews more protective. 

I'm talking about the mask pads. They have served me well for many years. I've taken many shots that would have concussed me with other pads leaving me with no negative effects whatsoever.

[Umpiresrock74]

1 hour ago, grayhawk said:

I'm talking about the mask pads. They have served me well for many years. I've taken many shots that would have concussed me with other pads leaving me with no negative effects whatsoever.

Oh, sorry, yes, I love the Memory Foam Mask Pads. 

[grayhawk]

Small update. Drilled out the rivets. Here is the fabric that is connected to the outer shell. Need to give it a good cleaning and try to remove the rust (CLR maybe?). Once clean, I'll reattach with Chicago screws.

 

[MadMax]

23 hours ago, grayhawk said:

Here is the fabric that is connected to the outer shell. Once clean, I'll reattach with Chicago screws.

Ready for this, Steve? This piece that you separated is the TPU-EVA foam vest that does most of the work on the CP. This isn’t just fabric. That advanced foam will absolutely continue to be protective (absorptive) for another 10-15 years, easy. 

I caution you on using something as caustic as CLR… I’d start with something more like a technical soap for breathable fabrics (think: for tents and sleeping bags), or perhaps an Oxi-Clean for-whites detergent non-chlorine bleach. 

Are ya seein’ why we hate rivets on clothing? 😵🤢

When you do secure with Chicago screws again, make sure to opt for aluminum or brass Chicago screws… they’ll be corrosion-free. 

23 hours ago, grayhawk said:

the fabric that is connected to the outer shell.

( @Cavalier1948, @Umpiresrock74, @The Short Umpire, @wolfe_man, @DerekGDS ) – so here’s what All-Star did instead of making a foam laminate. The mesh-encased TPU-EVA foam does the work of absorbing most of the energy passed to it by the carapace plates. You’ll notice that this TPU-EVA foam is holed, for maximum surface area to reduce weight and improve ventilation.
Then, they created these foam “pods” or “loaves”, comprised of a closed cell foam to give it shape and … this is where they cheated… they simply lapped and piled some cushy technical wicking fabric so as to act as “sizing bricks” for body contact. 

So! You don’t need any elaborate, protective foam, or foam laminate system. You already have it! You just need to make your own sizing foam pods, and position them to best fit to you within the System7 CP. 

[grayhawk]

That TPU-EVA foam vest is quite thin - maybe just 1/8 of an inch. I do know someone that took the pads off their S7 and took a shot he didn't like, so he put the pads back on. I do like the idea of doing strips of foam inside the existing "sizing bricks" to promote airflow and keep it light. Sounds like 1/4" might just do the trick. Still working on that part of the design.

[MadMax]

5 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

I do know someone that took the pads off their S7 and took a shot he didn't like, so he put the pads back on.

From the read of it, he took the sizing/contact pads (or pods) out. The business part of the CP is that TPU-EVA foam, as thin as it is. That 1/8 inch is all that’s needed, to absorb the initial impact. 
However, what your buddy felt was the CP slapping against his own body, because there was a gap, or a void, between that TPU-EVA foam and his bodyframe. 

It’s why Force3 Defender masks must be worn tight (not loose, like other TMs). If it’s loose, then the impacting energy just drives the mask across that space and into your skull / face, with the springs never being engaged. 

The Force3 UnEqual CP suffers from the same problem… the “magic” Kevlar is just a super-awesome, energy-absorbing fabric (thus, remarkably thin), but lacks the structure – sizing foam – behind it, and between it and your body. Thus, the mass + energy of a baseball drives the entire mass of the CP against your skin and body frame. 

Ever see how tight pro & collegiate catchers wear their (advanced) CPs? I’m not arguing against hard-shell umpire CPs, but those catchers have the right idea.