Baserunning to first

[wantlemon]

Hitter hits ground ball past first baseman into outfield and safely runs to first. Runs through/past first base to the right of the baseline into foul territory. Mistakenly thinks the ball had bounced foul on the way past first baseman and trots back towards home plate to retrieve his bat and return to bat, all on the right side of the baseline never crossing the baseline into the field of play.  Goes to pick up bat, everyone yelling at him to run back to first, other team yelling at their fielders to throw to first and get him out.  He runs back to first, still outside baseline the entire time, throw beats him to first, no tag, umpire calls him safe.  Fielding team's head coach goes crazy insisting he should have been out.

No clarification from ump but I was under impression the safe call is accurate as he never crossed the baseline, never made a turn towards second and never intended to advance bases.  Another parent arguing with me saying he was only safe because no tag was applied. Who is correct? Opposing coach (should have been out by fielder w ball touching base), me (safe under any circumstance as he never crossed path or attempted to advance) or other parent (claims once he passed first base again towards home plate he was back in the field of play and simply needed to be tagged out)?

Thanks!

[Jimurray]

32 minutes ago, wantlemon said:

Hitter hits ground ball past first baseman into outfield and safely runs to first. Runs through/past first base to the right of the baseline into foul territory. Mistakenly thinks the ball had bounced foul on the way past first baseman and trots back towards home plate to retrieve his bat and return to bat, all on the right side of the baseline never crossing the baseline into the field of play.  Goes to pick up bat, everyone yelling at him to run back to first, other team yelling at their fielders to throw to first and get him out.  He runs back to first, still outside baseline the entire time, throw beats him to first, no tag, umpire calls him safe.  Fielding team's head coach goes crazy insisting he should have been out.

No clarification from ump but I was under impression the safe call is accurate as he never crossed the baseline, never made a turn towards second and never intended to advance bases.  Another parent arguing with me saying he was only safe because no tag was applied. Who is correct? Opposing coach (should have been out by fielder w ball touching base), me (safe under any circumstance as he never crossed path or attempted to advance) or other parent (claims once he passed first base again towards home plate he was back in the field of play and simply needed to be tagged out)?

Thanks!

The baseline means nothing. There are two rules at play. One is whether he could be called out for abandonment:

": Any runner after reaching first base who leaves the base path heading for his dugout or his position believing that there is no further play, may be declared out if the umpire judges the act of the runner to be considered abandoning his efforts to run the bases."

He did believe there was no further play but did not head for his dugout or position (or is his position in the batter's box?) and in your OP was not called out for abandonment.

The other rule requires an immediate return after overrunning which he did not do and was subject to being tagged for an out:

"(4)  He is tagged, when the ball is alive, while off his base. EXCEPTION: A batter-runner cannot be tagged out after overrunning or oversliding first base if he returns immediately to the base;"

While the baseline means nothing the trajectory of the runner in regard to the baseline or 2B might make us judge that the runner did not immedately return anf if there was a tag off the base we would call him out.

[BigBlue4u]

23 hours ago, Jimurray said:

The baseline means nothing. There are two rules at play. One is whether he could be called out for abandonment:

": Any runner after reaching first base who leaves the base path heading for his dugout or his position believing that there is no further play, may be declared out if the umpire judges the act of the runner to be considered abandoning his efforts to run the bases."

He did believe there was no further play but did not head for his dugout or position (or is his position in the batter's box?) and in your OP was not called out for abandonment.

The other rule requires an immediate return after overrunning which he did not do and was subject to being tagged for an out:

"(4)  He is tagged, when the ball is alive, while off his base. EXCEPTION: A batter-runner cannot be tagged out after overrunning or oversliding first base if he returns immediately to the base;"

While the baseline means nothing the trajectory of the runner in regard to the baseline or 2B might make us judge that the runner did not immedately return anf if there was a tag off the base we would call him out.

I have an out and a question: What was the first base coach doing?

[Velho]

2 minutes ago, BigBlue4u said:

I have an out

Because retreating reinstituted the force* or abandonment? Runner was never tagged  

* This may be a trick question (and I may have finally come around to BR at first not being referred to as a Force)

[BigBlue4u]

4 hours ago, Velho said:

Because retreating reinstituted the force* or abandonment? Runner was never tagged  

* This may be a trick question (and I may have finally come around to BR at first not being referred to as a Force)

By rule, it would be abandonment.  (NFHS 8-4-2-p) (MLB 5.09b11)

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, BigBlue4u said:

By rule, it would be abandonment.  (NFHS 8-4-2-p) (MLB 5.09b11)

Have you not understood the nuance of the OP?  What position or defensive position did he return to? 

[maven]

I don't like an abandonment call for this. Sounds like youth ball: if the 1BC is awol, just call time and ask the BR where he's going. No good ever came from allowing a clown rodeo.

[beerguy55]

12 hours ago, Velho said:

Because retreating reinstituted the force* or abandonment? Runner was never tagged  

* This may be a trick question (and I may have finally come around to BR at first not being referred to as a Force)

Apparently there is a ruling somewhere that once B/R has touched first base he is required to be tagged when he has retreated towards home...the ability to tag the base is not "reapplied" as it would be in forced runner situations.

I, personally, think that's really silly and just allows for a goat show to happen between home and first.  Considering that the b/r must get to or beyond first (no, it's not a force play, but he is forced to advance) - it's not like you can just have him standing between home and first when the next batter takes a pitch.

[UMP45]

2 hours ago, maven said:

I don't like an abandonment call for this. Sounds like youth ball: if the 1BC is awol, just call time and ask the BR where he's going. No good ever came from allowing a clown rodeo.

I agree Maven. Know the rule. Know the spirit/ intent of the rule. And know how to apply the rule. Sometimes you just have to umpire.

[BigBlue4u]

14 hours ago, Jimurray said:

Have you not understood the nuance of the OP?  What position or defensive position did he return to? 

Apparently not.  Please explain it to me.

Thanks.

[MadMax]

19 hours ago, BigBlue4u said:

Please explain it to me.

I’ll take a stab at it. 

[credit: Jill Bearup]
As always, context is key. 
The Abandonment rule is a rule seeking an out; conjunctively, it is an out seeking a rule. Its origins lie in “old time” professional baseball, where 9 guys squared off against 9 guys, wherein there weren’t time limits (other than darkness sans lights), gloves were left (generally) in position, and no commercial breaks. Dugouts and bullpens were just “areas”, with loose definitions, and little to no consistency from ballfield to ballpark. Cameramen – press photos and “motion pictures” – were right there on the field. 

After being retired (ie. an Out), a player would either head back to the bench (dugout), or might go become a base coach (remember, this was the age of player-managers), or might go talk with a reporter on the perimeter. Batters didn’t wear helmets, or any of the elaborate protective equipment, let alone batting gloves. On the third out, the Batter, and any Runners, would simply head to their (next) defensive position, picking up or being brought a glove along the way. Of course, 1919 and Kennesaw Mountain Landis changed all that, but that’s the foundation. 

So when an Out occurred, it’d be attributed to something. Was the fly ball / liner caught? Yup. Out. Did the ball (and in possession of the Fielder) beat the Runner to the base? Yup. Out. Was he tagged (with the ball)? Yup. Out. Pretty simple! 

Then it got a little more complex… Did he commit interference? Yes. I judge that he did. Out. Was there a play attempt upon him, and in trying to elude that play/tag, did he exceed the “limits” of a/the basepath? Yes. I judge that he did. Out. The reason for this rule is to alleviate the defense from having to chase a runner throughout the ballpark provided that they had the ball and were in reasonable proximity to attempt a play on him. This is where the Abandonment rule stems from. Its direct sibling is the “Struck Out Batter leaves the plate/dirt circle rule”. On a U3K, and the Batter makes no effort to run to 1B, and concedes that he’s out by leaving the dirt circle so as to return to(wards) the dugout, then it alleviates the defense from having to chase him down, tag him, or throw it to 1B. See how this works? 

So if a Runner touches his base (BR is 1B), or the base he is forced to, and then leaves that base…. well… what is he? … I mean, he can’t be Out, because he legally touched – and achieved – that base. He’s obviously not Safe, because he's not there… come to think of it… where is he?? 

Oh there he is! He’s in the dugout / bullpen / over there talking with a reporter / he’s scooped up a glove and is headed to the outfield. Ah! It appears he’s abandoned his base, and concedes he’s Out. The defense doesn’t have to go over and tag him; and, in the case of a DBT dugout or pen, they can’t  

So… Boom.
“Why’s he out?” He abandoned. 

Here’s the thing – conceding, or concession, is a conscious choice to do so. An adult (pro) is expected to live with the consequences of that choice, whether valid or mistaken. Youth (ie. amateurs) don’t have those expectations placed so heavily upon them! Youth make these choices, often absent any awareness! 

Granted, as these youth players increase in age and experience, they should be more aware of these choices. However, we’re frequently talking about < 14 year olds, and we (as umpires) jump all over “Abandonment!” far, far too easily and quickly, often lacking any of those criteria so as to call it, and ignorant of context. 

It smacks of overzealous desire to “get an out”. “I’m calling you out, kid, because… I can! (And I wanna go home, and we need outs!)” 

To the OP situation, in that context, I really favor @maven’s and @UMP45’s tact on handling this. Did the BR legally touch & achieve 1B? Yes. Did he attempt to go to 2B? No. Are there other Runners present (whose status would be affected by calling Time)? No. 
“Time! Hey kid… where ya goin’?” 
“Oh! It wasn’t a foul ball?” 
“Nope. You hit a real good one. Head back to 1st. Nice job.” 

Oh, and you can forget it about that crap regarding “Max! He had to return directly and quickly back to 1B!” Hogwash. There’s been plenty of times where a BR had beaten the throw, legally touched and achieved the base, and injured himself at or after the base… and we (umpires) call Time prior to him returning. Don’t give me that grief. 
 

Author’s Note: I realize, this is one of my longest posts ever. I had nothing much else to do than dictate and edit while I’m driving up and thru Missouri and Illinois today. Whew! 😤 Life on the Road!

[Aging_Arbiter]

I will concur that this sounds much like youth game.

OP:........BR thinking it went foul.............

Me: Time!!!   I've got something in my eye. (not tagging him now with time out)**Finishes rubbing eye......

Me: Timmy, what are you doing here, you were safe at 1B.

 

[ArchAngel72]

I have safe no tag, the runner was clearly trying to help clear the field of his discarded bat and thus no attempt at 2nd was made so there for with no tag its not abandonment and he is safe.

 

so neener neener neener...