3 Coaches Ejected

[bluejerred]

Blowout game, 10u travel.  Top of first, winning team already up by 5.  Pitching coach requests time after a walk.  1st base coach (AC) starts yelling about how time can't be called until his runner reaches first in the direction of the DC. They start to jaw back and forth, I come up first base line to get between them and shut it down.

Next inning, runner coming home while winning team on defense (up by 10 at this point).  DC asks loudly during the play if there was batter interference since the batter moved out of the box while ball is live.  I give a safe signal and say "no interference" loudly since it was loud.  After play stops, he tells me that he's just trying to ask a question and I shouldn't be yelling at him.   I tell him that he asked during a play and I'm trying to keep everyone informed while people are yelling.  He thinks I'm talking down to him and asks to be spoken to as an adult, which I then just look at him with confusion and walk away.

Last inning, the winning team is up 16-1 and is breaking every baseball etiquette rule there is. Stealing, trying to run up the score, etc.  This is causing friction between the coaches and they start chirping at each other again.  AC at 1st base is yelling over at the HC's on the 3rd base side, things are escalating, I hear the winning team's HC getting loud.   I call time and toss the winning team's HC and AC forcefully (very loud "You, you're done" - I saw them as the agitators mainly because they were chirping loudly throughout the game and I heard them escalating.  They protest, AC tells me I've had a SH*# game all night. HC calls me a racist as he was leaving.  Winning team AC took over as HC and informed me that the coach on the losing team was calling them bush league (I did hear that said). I went over to investigate,  told them I heard bush league, and the HC admitted to saying it.  I calmly ejected him as well.

Game finished up nice and quiet. Even the parents were telling me good job because they were tired of hearing it from both sides.  

Surprisingly, the ejected HC for the defeated team called the board VP and told him that we did a great job and that he was just concerned for his kids and parents. 

I was disappointed that coaches from the winning team were engaging at all. Things were escalating and I felt that elections were the only way to get control of the behavior on the field. 

These are the first ejections I've had in a baseball game. Feel free to critique and ask questions as necessary. 

Thank you! 

 

 

[SeeingEyeDog]

10U, brothers...10...U...

~Dawg

[DerekGDS]

This is a sad read... Those coaches are regarded as their "role models". Quite pathetic especially at that age.

[834k3r]

1 hour ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

10U, brothers...10...U...

~Dawg

But don't you know that every kid on that roster is going to this year's MLB Futures All-Star Game?

[Lou B]

Up 16-1 and stealing/running up the score is pretty much bush league.

I probably would not toss a coach for yelling that.  Call time, tell him to knock it off.  If it happens again he's gone.

[Velho]

56 minutes ago, Lou B said:

I probably would not toss a coach for yelling that.  Call time, tell him to knock it off.  If it happens again he's gone.

Agreed in isolation. In OP, I'm good with that coach EJ. He contributed to the game long escalation. Added benefit is it shows both sides that they were both a problem.

@bluejerred - overall I think you did what you had to do. Thinking back - not dwelling nor obsessing but thinking back - were their spots you could have nipped it in the bud? The "no interference" moment "which I then just look at him with confusion and walk away" may have been a place to change tacts ( "Coach, let's both take a breath" non-sequiturs if you're a humorous guy). 

That's the only thing that comes to mind: wondering if there was an opportunity to defuse along the way. There may not have been of course. Sometimes it just plays out and you have to fulfill the coach's wish to go home.

[StatsUmp]

1 hour ago, Lou B said:

Up 16-1 and stealing/running up the score is pretty much bush league.

Sadly, I saw the opposite in a recent season where a coach did everything in his power to not run up the score once the game became one-sided only to have the visiting coaching staff take offense 🤷‍♂️. Needless to say, the second game of the doubleheader was ugly when the winning coach decided to show what would happen if he played the game normally: a 32-0 final score after three innings. It's a shame because the winning coach has a strong program and is used to managing the occasional blowout, and I've never had any issues with him in the games I've umpired.

24 minutes ago, Velho said:

That's the only thing that comes to mind: wondering if there was an opportunity to defuse along the way. There may not have been of course. Sometimes it just plays out and you have to fulfill the coach's wish to go home.

Whenever I have to address coach behavior with either a verbal warning or something more, regardless the sport, I tend to ask myself post-game if there was a better way to defuse. Sometimes there isn't. There's no easy answer because what might work one game might not work in the next game. Still, good communication makes it easier to follow the IWRE progression if and when it becomes necessary.

8 hours ago, DerekGDS said:

This is a sad read... Those coaches are regarded as their "role models". Quite pathetic especially at that age.

It's unfortunate that the younger the age group, the more immature the adults involved in the sport seem to act.

[The Man in Blue]

17 hours ago, Velho said:

Agreed in isolation. In OP, I'm good with that coach EJ. He contributed to the game long escalation. Added benefit is it shows both sides that they were both a problem.

@bluejerred - overall I think you did what you had to do. Thinking back - not dwelling nor obsessing but thinking back - were their spots you could have nipped it in the bud? The "no interference" moment "which I then just look at him with confusion and walk away" may have been a place to change tacts ( "Coach, let's both take a breath" non-sequiturs if you're a humorous guy). 

That's the only thing that comes to mind: wondering if there was an opportunity to defuse along the way. There may not have been of course. Sometimes it just plays out and you have to fulfill the coach's wish to go home.

This is the best post-game postmortem you can do.  Identify the points when things started slipping away so that you can stop it the next time.

My personal opinion and approach, I do not allow ANY jawing back and forth between coaches.  NONE.  Shut that $#!+ down yesterday.  If they are ACs, then they get even less leeway.  You (hopefully) wouldn’t let two players go at each other, so do NOT allow coaches to go back and forth.

From a game management perspective, almost all of my worst games started spiraling this way.

Talk it down as soon as it starts.  Issue the team warnings immediately.  The key is not to escalate it yourself, though.  Calmly let the HC know that NOBODY is to yell or even speak to the other team.  There is NO reason for opposing coaches to talk to one another; all subs go to you and get announced by you anyway.

 

Maybe an unpopular opinion: depending on the run-rule, I wouldn’t be letting up completely at 16-1.  If there is a 15 run-rule, I want an insurance run or two.  This is especially true in tournaments when you have more games to play.  Put it to bed, save your pitching, get off the field before a player gets hurt, and rest up for the next game.

[StatsUmp]

11 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

My personal opinion and approach, I do not allow ANY jawing back and forth between coaches.  NONE.  Shut that $#!+ down yesterday.  If they are ACs, then they get even less leeway.  You (hopefully) wouldn’t let two players go at each other, so do NOT allow coaches to go back and forth.

This. Although I haven't had this on the diamond yet (*knocks wood 🪵*), I've issued bench conduct warnings in basketball when coaches decided to jaw at each other. If one or both teams already received such a warning, they earn a technical foul instead. @The Man in Blue is right that this conduct needs to be addressed immediately to set the tone moving forward.

 

11 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

Maybe an unpopular opinion: depending on the run-rule, I wouldn’t be letting up completely at 16-1.  If there is a 15 run-rule, I want an insurance run or two.

I definitely understand the sentiment. A couple of years ago, I had a 16-1 softball game an out away from ending under the 15-run limit. VT managed to get a runner on third before HT got the final out. the game was bad enough that neither my partner nor I wanted another inning. An insurance run definitely helps out in those games that need to end as quickly as possible within the rules.

[Velho]

41 minutes ago, StatsUmp said:

This. Although I haven't had this on the diamond yet (*knocks wood 🪵*), I've issued bench conduct warnings in basketball when coaches decided to jaw at each other. If one or both teams already received such a warning, they earn a technical foul instead. @The Man in Blue is right that this conduct needs to be addressed immediately to set the tone moving forward.

I'll add coaches talking to other teams players as well. Reminding them it's prohibited by rule AND a really bad idea. Doing LL, I see coaches trying to be helpful but it can turn badly very quickly.

Last Saturday I gave feedback to a team who's F1 was talking to the coach ("I beat him to the bag coach. I really did") for the same reason.

[Coach Carl]

I don't know the context of other scheduled games to assess the coach's desire to run-rule this game, but that what it looked like.  Trying to get a steal after a walk and trying to get an out on a BI strikes me as, "let's get our 15 after three and save arms".

The losing coach needs to understand this strategy and not let it bother him.  It's part of the game when you deal with pitch counts and mandatory rest days.  

Two suggestions:

When he was upset about the time out for a conference before his runner got to first, you could de-escalate by taking it away from the opposing coach.  Once he directed his comments at the other coach you could intervene by saying, "that's on me coach, I granted it..." plus whatever else you could say if you want to make sure he understands you won't do that again.  If he wants to argue with you about it, then quickly get him calm down or face ejection.  Meanwhile, the losing coach will learn something too.  It's 10U and everyone is learning.

On the BI:

You got a question as play was ongoing and you gave a loud signal so everyone could hear.  I don't know the wisdom (or lack thereof?) of addressing questions while the ball is live, but it seems you learned something.  Don't interact with questions until the play is relaxed and you grant time.  Then you have the ability to control the conversation and keep it civil.

[Velho]

3 hours ago, Coach Carl said:

The losing coach needs to understand this strategy and not let it bother him.  It's part of the game when you deal with pitch counts and mandatory rest days.  

Shifting to coach talk: This right here.

Also, if you don't like getting run-ruled, don't suck.

[SeeingEyeDog]

Coach on coach yelling...coach on opposing player yelling...player on player yelling...and likely a dozen other player/coach/umpire interactions involving yelling? That all falls under sportsmanship. Every amateur baseball ruleset has (in varying degrees) some kind of aversion to poor sportsmanship. What's difficult about yelling in and of itself is...not everyone who yells is mad. Sometimes people are just to lazy to walk over and have a perfectly civilized normal volume conversation. But, in the wrong context people yelling across a baseball field can be interpreted different ways depending on the circumstance?

Bottom line...when I see these kinds of elevated, animated verbal exchanges? I read them and try to let themselves burn themselves out. Once it becomes prolonged, I will step to each head coach (whether they were the perps or not...) and say, "Coach, this is a sportsmanship warning. If it continues, you will be restricted to the dugout." and in most cases this is the end of it.

Remember, it's never about US (as umpires) "making it about us". (That expression has always ground my gears...) If people are exhibiting poor sportsmanship, it's the umpires' responsibility to address it with our progressive discipline protocols. It does not "take care of itself" and what we permit, we promote. As Don Knotts famously said, "Nip it, Andy! Nip it in the bud!"

~Dawg

[The Man in Blue]

1 hour ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

But, in the wrong context people yelling across a baseball field can be interpreted different ways depending on the circumstance?

True … 

1 hour ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

Bottom line...when I see these kinds of elevated, animated verbal exchanges? I read them and try to let themselves burn themselves out.

 

 

[blue23ll]

In my experience, you need to stop mis-conduct like this immediately. If you don't it will escalate and you will lose control of the game.  Coaches yelling at each other, unchecked will soon lead to the fans getting involved, at that point, the game is done.  
Something as minor as a hard tag on a pick off at 1st can spiral out of control if it isn't dealt with. 

Ask me how I know....

[bluejerred]

If the winning team was the home team, I'd understand getting the runs to get the run-rule.  They were the visiting team and what they were doing was extending the game.  We were at the no new inning time limit anyways.  

[The Man in Blue]

43 minutes ago, bluejerred said:

If the winning team was the home team, I'd understand getting the runs to get the run-rule.  They were the visiting team and what they were doing was extending the game.  We were at the no new inning time limit anyways.  

Which brings up my BIGGEST proposal for a rule change in time-limit games:

If EITHER team is up by the run-rule when time expires, the game is immediately over.

The purpose of a clock on the game is to keep the tournament on schedule.  That is all.  You can make your "but, but, home team, blah, blah" argument and it does not matter.  Placing a clock on the game fundamentally changes the game.  You can't have it both ways.  You can't get your butt whooped for an hour and a half or two hours and then cry that you "were about to make your big comeback!"  If you don't like it, don't play tournaments with time limits.

[MadMax]

On 4/3/2024 at 10:56 PM, bluejerred said:

Top of first, winning team already up by 5.  Pitching coach requests time after a walk.  1st base coach (AC) starts yelling about how time can't be called until his runner reaches first in the direction of the DC.

🙄 Know where this comes from, or where this is going? 

Stupid Fed rules. 
What these youth teams do is send a BR direct to 2B (or even 3B) on a BB so as to force the defense to throw. It’s not teaching baseball… it’s “teaching” aggressive run-scoring. The purpose is not to develop baseball skills, in aggregate, but to “win the weekend”… and the stupid “trophy” on Sunday. 

I can identify these teams – or, to be fair, these coaches – from fifty paces away. Coaches are young (at least < me), their attire is all matching to the team’s (outrageous) color scheme, and there’s often more than 2 (the BCs are working like a verbal tag team). They want Visitors (most of the / every) time. They are exceptionally confrontational, and unless you (as umpire) cite Rulebook terminology, they will either twist words, or will state, “That’s not what the other / previous umpire said.” They prey on young and old umpires in equal measure. 

Their goal in running the score(s) up is one-part demoralizing, one-part time-&-energy saving, and one-part for better seeding (ie. Runs Against or Run Differential). Because these tournaments have so many teams in such a stratified bracket, their aim is not to have 3 good, intense games, and then on to the Championship, come what may… no, their aim is to have 3 quick, blowout games, and then “earn” the top seed, Home advantage in the championship… which in many tournaments… loosens its time limits!!! 

 

[Velho]

1 hour ago, MadMax said:

their attire is all matching to the team’s (outrageous) color scheme,Not

Not to hijack but timeliness...this was sent to me today. Watch to end for extreme example of attire @MadMax is speaking of.

[The Man in Blue]

I'd rather watch them play with emotion rather than fake theatrics encouraged by . . . yeesh, that guy.

[bluejerred]

On 4/7/2024 at 6:17 PM, MadMax said:

What these youth teams do is send a BR direct to 2B (or even 3B) on a BB so as to force the defense to throw. It’s not teaching baseball… it’s “teaching” aggressive run-scoring. The purpose is not to develop baseball skills, in aggregate, but to “win the weekend”… and the stupid “trophy” on Sunday. 

I can identify these teams – or, to be fair, these coaches – from fifty paces away. Coaches are young (at least < me), their attire is all matching to the team’s (outrageous) color scheme, and there’s often more than 2 (the BCs are working like a verbal tag team). They want Visitors (most of the / every) time. They are exceptionally confrontational, and unless you (as umpire) cite Rulebook terminology, they will either twist words, or will state, “That’s not what the other / previous umpire said.” They prey on young and old umpires in equal measure. 

 

 

This fits them exactly.  Honestly, I couldn't have described it better.

Update:  Apparently last weekend, the coaches in question were well behaved.  So at least I can say I didn't pass my problem to another umpire.

I'm assuming the confrontational attitude described above is an attempt to take control of the game and sway close calls to go their way?  My coach in question was as described above, but he wasn't stupid.  I got the impression he knew exactly what he was doing. 

[SeeingEyeDog]

7 minutes ago, bluejerred said:

This fits them exactly.  Honestly, I couldn't have described it better.

Update:  Apparently last weekend, the coaches in question were well behaved.  So at least I can say I didn't pass my problem to another umpire.

I'm assuming the confrontational attitude described above is an attempt to take control of the game and sway close calls to go their way?  My coach in question was as described above, but he wasn't stupid.  I got the impression he knew exactly what he was doing. 

A lot of the times? They DO know exactly what they are doing. We have several HS and travel coaches in my market who know our progressive discipline is the hand, verbal, written, dugout and ejection and they make sure they take it to verbal every time...EVERY time. I've said for years that the number and type of warnings a coach receives in a season should be tracked and there should be appropriate consequences even if they never get ejected. Then you can establish a mean for the group of coaches in question. If the mean is 7 verbal, 5 written and 3 dugout restrictions for the season...and you've got an outlier with say 50 verbal and 40 written and 30 dugout restrictions? You have a problem coach who needs to talk with the league or state authority. But, what we permit, we promote.

Don't let them spend any more time in your head then they need to for you to evaluate their choices, behavior and words. We all know what we are going to individually allow and prohibit over the course of umpiring a baseball game. Now go out there and illustrate that to the coaches and players.

~Dawg