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jimmyword

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So I'm an umpire behind home plate. It's the bottom of the ninth, full count 2 outs, man on first and second, the score is tied. The second-base runner breaks for third, as the pitcher starts his wind up, trying to steal. The catcher stands up, blocks my view of the plate, batter check swings. Catcher throws to third. I can't see the ball go over the plate, or see if the batter went around. I point to my partner who is standing between 2nd & 3rd, but he is looking at the play at third, and doesn't see me and can't help anyway, since he's trying to see the play at third. He calls an out at third, but there was no tag and no force. He also didn't see what the batter did. The visiting team manager asks for a second opinion regarding the play at third. My partner and I conference. I ask, "Was the baserunner tagged?" He answers, "No." I ask, if he saw the pitch and the check swing. He says no. Now, what should I have done next?

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36 minutes ago, jimmyword said:

So I'm an umpire behind home plate. It's the bottom of the ninth, full count 2 outs, man on first and second, the score is tied. The second-base runner breaks for third, as the pitcher starts his wind up, trying to steal. The catcher stands up, blocks my view of the plate, batter check swings. Catcher throws to third. I can't see the ball go over the plate, or see if the batter went around. I point to my partner who is standing between 2nd & 3rd, but he is looking at the play at third, and doesn't see me and can't help anyway, since he's trying to see the play at third. He calls an out at third, but there was no tag and no force. He also didn't see what the batter did. The visiting team manager asks for a second opinion regarding the play at third. My partner and I conference. I ask, "Was the baserunner tagged?" He answers, "No." I ask, if he saw the pitch and the check swing. He says no. Now, what should I have done next?

Sounds like bases loaded, 2 outs. 

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49 minutes ago, jimmyword said:

He calls an out at third, but there was no tag and no force

Without getting into too much detail or sounding condescending about the literal impossibility of every action described in this play, I'll say that unless R2 over slides third base and is tagged out after doing so, the final outcome of this play is bases loaded and still two out.

With BU saying there was no tag the only logical follow-up question, if only for morbid curiosity, is "then why did you call him out".

You need to ask that because there is one scenario where the runner cannot be out by rule, and another where he can be by judgment (and then it's solely his decision to whether or not he changes his mind)...and you must understand what the BU saw to make that determination.  Though if he's clear there was never any tag that might be moot anyway.

If you don't see a strike it's a ball (F2's learn not to get into the plate ump's way)...if you don't see a swing there wasn't one (again, F2's learn to let the ump see what they need to see).

 

 

 

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F2 jumps in my field of view last second and completely blocks me out? Unless I 100% have a swing by the batter, "ball!, no he didn't go." However, as described, F2 stood up while F1 was in the process of delivering the ball. It doesn't happen often, but you should have had a little time to adjust. Stand up, duck deep into the slot, something to see the pitch, or at a minimum, see the glove and call the glove. That being said...

Now you have a play happening... which may be ball 4 and bases loaded, or on the off chance R2 over slid can came off the bag and was tagged, you have the end of the inning. 

Your partner made an out call. You asked him if he saw a tag and he said no... did he change his call? If not, you have the 3rd out. If he did and is about to reverse himself, you then asked if he had a check swing. He says yes, you get strike 3 and the 3rd out. He says no, or I didn't see it, then you have bases loaded, 2 outs, a pissed off defensive team and something to post game in the parking lot.

 

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13 hours ago, jimmyword said:

Now, what should I have done next?

All sarcasm aside, this is the wrong question. No umpire code, manual, or school offers a comprehensive guide for how to handle games after mistakes. The general answer to that is: do the best you can in the spirit of fairness. The better question to ask is: are the mistakes here preventable?

Both members of the crew neglected responsibilities. BU must have a look at the check swing before turning to 3B for the play there. Indeed, failing to do so can be lethal, when the B hits one on the screws right at the (now) back of BU's head.

And PU must have a ruling on the pitch. When F2 stands up, we can move farther into the slot to get an angle on the pitch—not a great angle, to be sure, but better than the one that runs through F2's body. Know that R2 might attempt a steal, and that the play will be at 3B. Be ready with your adjustment step and lean into the slot. Guys (not necessarily the OP) get anchored behind the plate, such that even earthquakes can't dislodge them, and it doesn't serve the game.

We can get help on the check swing from (a properly functioning) BU, but nobody can help us call the pitch. I don't subscribe to "punitive" umpiring, according to which if F2 moves to obscure my look at the pitch, it's automatically a (penalty) ball. 

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2 hours ago, maven said:

Know that R2 might attempt a steal,

The OP was full count, 2 outs.  Every forced runner is running on the pitch.  There won't be a play on R2 advancing  (there might be a play if R2 overslides, but that's enough later that BU doesn't need to turn right away).

 

And, in the OP:

16 hours ago, jimmyword said:

The visiting team manager asks for a second opinion

That should be ignored (absent some additional information not provided)

 

(iow, the whole post raises some suspicions)

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24 minutes ago, noumpere said:

The OP was full count, 2 outs.  Every forced runner is running on the pitch.  There won't be a play on R2 advancing  (there might be a play if R2 overslides, but that's enough later that BU doesn't need to turn right away).

 

And, in the OP:

That should be ignored (absent some additional information not provided)

 

(iow, the whole post raises some suspicions)

Exactly...

First - R2 isn't "stealing"...forced runners are going on the pitch with full count two outs.

Second - the above is one of the first things kids learn at a young age...it's easy to remember, and it gives them a reason to run...they love it, look forward to it, and don't forget it.  And if they aren't coached to do it...every time you have forced runners, two out and full count in an MLB game, the broadcast announcers are always saying "the runners will be going on the pitch"...

Third - if the coach is teaching his kids to run in this situation, then he KNOWS that R2 can't be out at third (oversliding base aside)...said coach would not ask for a second opinion, he would be saying "the batter walked, he can't be out" - it's a discussion about rules, not judgment.

Fourth - because these kids know the basic rule to run in this scenario, it's highly unlikely the catcher makes an attempt to throw R2 out (of all the unlikely things in the OP, this is really the most plausible of the bunch)

Fifth - BU, who also doesn't seem to know that forced runners are always going in this situation, doesn't watch for check swing (or to see if the ball is hit), and calls a phantom out, and nobody bothers to ask why

There are really only two possibilities here.

1. This is 8 year old rec ball where the players, coaches and umpires (likely parent volunteers) don't understand the game

2. This is a hypothetical created by someone who doesn't understand the game

I'd bet a lot of money on 2.

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32 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

1. This is 8 year old rec ball where the players, coaches and umpires (likely parent volunteers) don't understand the game

OP was bottom of the ninth -- typically used to refer to a pro game and not to extra innigs in an amateur game.

 

Might be some AI example.

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I would also add, know the situation. With an R2, BU is in C, so with a RHB the BU is not going to be much help. 
 

32 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

Exactly...

There are really only two possibilities here.

1. This is 8 year old rec ball where the players, coaches and umpires (likely parent volunteers) don't understand the game

2. This is a hypothetical created by someone who doesn't understand the game

I'd bet a lot of money on 2.

There may be a third. I just reread the post and wondering if the BU was actually ruling on the appeal?  
 

To the OP, where are you?  Curious to know what happened. 

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6 minutes ago, noumpere said:

OP was bottom of the ninth -- typically used to refer to a pro game and not to extra innigs in an amateur game.

 

Might be some AI example.

Yet a fourth possibility!  

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[English teacher] Not AI (based on the writing).  Punctuation is suspect, but the rest of the writing has human tone. [ / English teacher]

 

Other than the bottom of the ninth reference, sounds like two newer umpires and/or a mess that could happen to any of us on a rough day.

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3 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

sounds like two newer umpires and/or a mess that could happen to any of us on a rough day.

Don't clear the catcher of any fault here either...Why the heck is he standing up on a 3-2 2 out pitch? 

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3 hours ago, Tborze said:

The pitch was high? 

Well, that sure would have prevented the whole $i*t  show that followed.
“Ball”…”Did he Go?”  
Yes? Inning over

no? R2 safe unless it was an over slide.

Problem being the op says he never saw the pitch, implying f2 stood up well before PU could tell if it was high. 

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