R1 doesn't reach HP on grand slam HR

[BDad]

I feel like I know this but I'm overthinking it...

LL Majors rules. R1, R2, R3 less than two out. Batter hits HR. R2 and R3 score legally. R1 touches 3B legally but stops halfway up 3BL to celebrate with teammates coming out of the 3B dugout and never reaches HP. BR touches HP legally. I was PU and made no call, thinking I was waiting for an appeal for R1 not touching HP (the appeal never came). After the game I talked myself into thinking I should have called BR out for passing R1. What do you have?

[DevildogUmp]

BR out for passing as soon as it occurs (7.08h). If R1 never touches/passes the plate, and goes to the dugout, you can get abandonment on R1 (7.08a(2)), so 2 outs and score R3 and R2.

[MadMax]

 
- Why wasn’t R1 called Out for celebrating? 
- Why wasn’t R1 called Out for teammate assistance (being assisted by)? 
- Why wasn’t the entire team and/or their HC ejected for coming out of the dugout? 
 

🤨

We need a LL guy to answer this one… 

Edit: On further thought, and 2nd read… 

Even if you call Out the BR for passing, then you have to call the Out and explain to the scorekeeper (at least, and likely the OTHC, who miiiiiight throw a fit) that you’ve got BR out for passing R1… 

… you don’t have an appeal by DT on the missed HP touch by R1, thus, he remains a scored runner. 

So don’t feel (too) bad. The DT missed it, too. 
 

… unless you called R1 out for celebrating (hey! Other LL and local umpires have made that call before!!), wherein you cannot call BR out for passing afterall! 

[BDad]

Thanks for the feedback! Was thinking I missed 7.08(h) passing the runner. And there would have been a fit thrown..."Sorry, just a triple. You get what you get and you don't get upset." Ha.

Hadn't thought of abandonment. @DevildogUmp you would call R1 out for abandonment because he didn't reach HP but wait for the appeal if he reached HP but did not touch it? I always thought 7.08(a)(2) meant giving up near first base because of the way the rule is worded (and described in the RIM comments), but you seem to be interpreting it as anywhere on the base paths after touching 1B. In LL rules, when is it considered abandonment? On a U3K, it's not until entering dead ball area or the dugout per 6.05(b)A.R. 

Edit: Found my own answer in the RIM the following comment for 7.08(a)(2): "When to call the runner out? Whenever they obviously "gives up" and heads toward their dugout or, at the end of an inning, towards their defensive position, but wait until the runner is on foul ground or well into the outfield grass before you declare an out."

Edited March 30, 2024 by BDad
found the RIM comment that answered my own question

[Velho]

15 hours ago, MadMax said:

… unless you called R1 out for celebrating (hey! Other LL and local umpires have made that call before!!), wherein you cannot call BR out for passing afterall! 

We're not calling R1 out for high fives from a coach in LL, or anything adjacent. Using the dad voice though to scare them all back into the dugout - yeah, I'll do that 😉 

In OP, I'm going with BR out for passing and standing there a looonnngggg time waiting for R1 to come to the plate. If he enters the dead ball territory, we've got abandonment. If someone pushes him to home plate, we've got assistance. 

Thank you @BDad for going through this in real time (and not me since I get to sit on my couch and decide so I've got it figured out ahead of time when it happens for me).

[Velho]

3 hours ago, BDad said:

In LL rules, when is it considered abandonment? On a U3K, it's not until entering dead ball area or the dugout per 6.05(b)A.R. 

Here is what the LL RIM says. As you can see, there is room for leeway. Also, "Don't make this you best call" comes to mind. 😉

[DevildogUmp]

@BDad yes, if the runner abandons, you just call the out. If he crosses the plate without touching, that becomes an appeal.

[beerguy55]

Since R1 never actually reached home plate, the defensive appeal really should be the last thing that occurs, and shouldn't get to that point.  Like you say in the OP, he didn't "miss" home plate...he never got to it.

As I see the OP...R1 doesn't really "abandon"...yet.  BR passes R1 while R1 is high fiving people...BR is out for passing...then R1 goes to the dugout without ever getting near home - now he has abandoned.  Both are out...and that would be a dick move at this level.

Since it's a dead ball wait until everyone is done running bases then make a decision.  I think if you want to be clean about it, just call R1 out for abandonment (and rule that, in your judgment, abandonment happened before B/R passed R1).  The other option is pick the most appropriate player to call out based on how R1 delayed his jog to home. If R1 never touches home, call him out for abandonment...if R1 was still on his way to, and eventually touches home, you might call BR for passing.  I still go for calling R1 out...do what you can to not punish BR for R1's error.

You may have to explain to the coach why it's abandonment and not a missed base appeal.   He can also be informed that the choice is to turn a grand slam into a 3-run shot...or turn it into a 3 RBI triple (maybe even 2 RBI).