EJ or No?

[834k3r]

While I was watching my son's game the other night, one of his teammates (F8, but it doesn't really matter) struck out looking on a slider middle-middle. He slammed his bat to the ground and turned around like he was having a tantrum. He has a history of doing that all the way back to when he was in LL.

I joined the umpires and the head of our association's evaluation committee for their post-game. During the post-game, the evaluator suggested the PU should have tossed the batter because he was showing up the umpire.

Do you guys agree?

[Velho]

More details? Did he say anything or was it no more than slamming the bat and walking in a huff back to the dugout with his head down?

[834k3r]

Just now, Velho said:

More details? Did he say anything or was it no more than slamming the bat and walking in a huff back to the dugout with his head down?

Yeah, I should have provided more. Nothing was directed at the umpire, but the player is notorious for his tantrums when calls don't go his way. He's never (to my knowledge) made any personal comments to an umpire.

[Thunderheads]

this is posted in high school, but ....... age group?

[834k3r]

3 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

this is posted in high school, but ....... age group?

Oh, it's NFHS for sure. The kid in the OP is a freshman.

His tantrums have never been addressed. His dad was the coach of all his LL and travel teams and he never addressed it either.

[Thunderheads]

3 minutes ago, 834k3r said:

Oh, it's NFHS for sure. The kid in the OP is a freshman.

His tantrums have never been addressed. His dad was the coach of all his LL and travel teams and he never addressed it either.

That's fine, but ........ to an umpire who's never seen the kid?  A freshman pissed off he missed a cock-shot?  Let it go.  Read the room, and just remember it next time he comes up

[SeeingEyeDog]

I don't like that...and I also don't like reaching for an ejection here either. I'm grabbing the coach on the changeover, pulling out my book so, people will think we are discussing the lineup and saying something to the effect of that's unacceptable and please take care of that so that the umpires don't have to. Maybe it's been tolerated to this point, maybe others will tolerate that in the future...I am not tolerating that.

~Dawg

[Thunderheads]

6 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

I don't like that...and I also don't like reaching for an ejection here either. I'm grabbing the coach on the changeover, pulling out my book so, people will think we are discussing the lineup and saying something to the effect of that's unacceptable and please take care of that so that the umpires don't have to. Maybe it's been tolerated to this point, maybe others will tolerate that in the future...I am not tolerating that.

~Dawg

that always works!!!!!  

[834k3r]

@SeeingEyeDog and @Thunderheads, thanks for your thoughts. I'm a bit reluctant to dump the player for his tantrums as well, but also reluctant to push back on our association's chief evaluator.

I'll keep my EJ line at the "3 Ps" and go talk to the coach if I'm in a similar position as the OP.

[Velho]

32 minutes ago, 834k3r said:

I'll keep my EJ line at the "3 Ps" and go talk to the coach if I'm in a similar position as the OP.

I like this approach. Being part of the local community is great but we have to balance that with "It's a new game" each day. Kids mature and change, especially (hopefully) from LL to HS. We should let them settle into that new maturity while giving grace for regression - within reason of course.

[maven]

I don't have my book, but my recollection is that throwing equipment is a "warn then eject" level offense under 3-3-1. Egregious violations can skip directly to ejection.

It's HS baseball, and we still have an opportunity to teach sportsmanship. At 14, he doesn't get to be Bryce Harper.

It's great when a coach addresses this behavior, but many don't have the cojones to stand up to parents. Same for some umpires.

If I were evaluating a PU umpire who allowed this, it would be a substantial ding and a followup convo.

[Thatsnotyou]

I think I’d need to see the “bat slam”. How hard was it? Did he let the bat go (if so I’d say 100% EJ)? Was he walking away to the dugout while doing it or did he stand there and look at the umpire - you said he turned around? 
 

Not against an EJ in HS depending on the above. This isn’t 11u. 

[johnnyg08]

One thing I've learned is when a player like that is showing us unsportsmanlike conduct. Dump him. 

It's likely he's gotten away with that behavior forever and even the coach can't control him. 

Dump him and don't feel bad. 

Live & learn. 

[The Man in Blue]

5 hours ago, Thunderheads said:

That's fine, but ........ to an umpire who's never seen the kid?  A freshman pissed off he missed a cock-shot?  Let it go.  Read the room, and just remember it next time he comes up

There is my hang up.  I don't have a history with the kid, I'm not running the rails on him.  Once he has a history with me, possibly.

5 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

I don't like that...and I also don't like reaching for an ejection here either. I'm grabbing the coach on the changeover, pulling out my book so, people will think we are discussing the lineup and saying something to the effect of that's unacceptable and please take care of that so that the umpires don't have to. Maybe it's been tolerated to this point, maybe others will tolerate that in the future...I am not tolerating that.

~Dawg

 

I really like the discretion in the approach, but that bolded section is the key point.  You aren't passing the buck, you are giving the coach an opportunity.  If he doesn't take the opportunity, then teach junior the hard way the next time.

 

3 hours ago, Thatsnotyou said:

I think I’d need to see the “bat slam”. How hard was it? Did he let the bat go (if so I’d say 100% EJ)? Was he walking away to the dugout while doing it or did he stand there and look at the umpire - you said he turned around? 
 

Not against an EJ in HS depending on the above. This isn’t 11u. 

 

I know we grew up in a different world than these kids, but as a teacher, I can definitively say freshmen are not that different emotionally different than 11u.  Heck, they are chronologically closer to 11u than varsity.

[Velho]

3 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

You aren't passing the buck, you are giving the coach an opportunity.

This is how one of my LL UICs had his only EJ: Kid struck out and threw a fit similar to OP. PU made eye contact with the coach with a "you taking care of this of me?" look. Coach gave a nod. Buh-bye.

Coach had likely been trying all year and wanted this EJ to help him get through to the kid (or just get him a way from the team for a bit at least).

[The Man in Blue]

Another reason I like the option approach: maybe the coach has been trying to deal with it and wants our help.

[Catch18]

“Hey, Mike, that behavior has gotten too far. He can’t slam his equipment like that. I’d hate to mistakenly think he’s being unsportsmanlike toward me/the call. Please handle that situation, so it doesn’t present to me again.”

[834k3r]

On 3/15/2024 at 2:53 PM, Thatsnotyou said:

I think I’d need to see the “bat slam”. How hard was it? Did he let the bat go (if so I’d say 100% EJ)? Was he walking away to the dugout while doing it or did he stand there and look at the umpire - you said he turned around? 
 

Not against an EJ in HS depending on the above. This isn’t 11u. 

To further clarify, he didn't turn towards the PU. He (RHB) slammed the barrel of his bat on the ground and maintained possession of the bat, then turned toward his (3B) dugout and stomped off.

To everyone here, this is exactly the discussion I was hoping for. As with most things in The Craft, a lot is based on "Had To Be There" but this discussion is valuable for thinking through factors involved. I know in our association a couple umpires that have collegiate umpiring experience would come down solidly on Team Ejection, and know there would be several others in our association that would come down on Team Talk To The Coach. I'm not sure where I stand, to be honest. I have a game with that team in a couple of weeks and you can be sure I'll be ready one way or the other.

I was talking to the evaluator (the one mentioned in the OP) that I think our EJ standards are too high, and we need to be ready to dump more players if the situation warrants, so maybe that's where I land. The player's dad isn't a coach for the team any more, so maybe I give the coach the help he needs (whether he realizes it or not).

[Velho]

35 minutes ago, 834k3r said:

I was talking to the evaluator (the one mentioned in the OP) that I think our EJ standards are too high,

This is likely almost certainly true for all youth sports

[BigBlue4u]

3 hours ago, Catch18 said:

“Hey, Mike, that behavior has gotten too far. He can’t slam his equipment like that. I’d hate to mistakenly think he’s being unsportsmanlike toward me/the call. Please handle that situation, so it doesn’t present to me again.”

And, thus the behavior continues.  If a player "slams" his bat after I call him out on strikes, he's done, I don't care why he did it.  Quick story: A travel ball league game last summer.  I called a kid out on a border-line corner strike three.  He took a couple of steps and threw his bat against the fence.  Bye, bye.  After the game, three sets of parents came up to thank me.  They said he has been doing stuff like this all season and none of the umpires did anything about it.

[Catch18]

And, thus the behavior continues.  If a player "slams" his bat after I call him out on strikes, he's done, I don't care why he did it.  Quick story: A travel ball league game last summer.  I called a kid out on a border-line corner strike three.  He took a couple of steps and threw his bat against the fence.  Bye, bye.  After the game, three sets of parents came up to thank me.  They said he has been doing stuff like this all season and none of the umpires did anything about it.

How do you know it continues?

Throwing his bat against the fence is a whole level different than pounding the ground.

Would you EJ a BB player for slamming the ball against the floor after a call? No, the T is the warning.

[Velho]

1 minute ago, Catch18 said:

Would you EJ a BB player for slamming the ball against the floor after a call? No, the T is the warning.

Oh yes, formally having something in-between tacit endorsement and nuclear. Warning and player is skip over their next AB for an out. Sign me up.

Oh Ms. Teschmacher...