RBIbaseball Posted March 15, 2024 Report Posted March 15, 2024 Been awhile fellas, but I've been lurking. This will probably be a long one. Had my first game of the season. NFHS varsity - for context, it was the worst team in the region vs. a below average team, so very low pressure. It was well on the way to the 15-0 finish at this point. Bot of the 4th, first batter earned a BB - I was BU B/R moseyed on down to first, and upon approaching first slowed and started taking off his protective gear. He continued to move beyond the front of the bag and stood next to 1B while taking off his batting gloves and handing things to the coach. He never touched the base. His feet were clearing moving around as he messed with his gear. At one point his left leg went back and behind the base, missing it by a couple inches again as he took off his shin protector. He was within 3 or 4 inches of the base the entire time but 100% never touched it. This lasted about 8-10 sec, then the offensive coach called for a timeout. PU granted time. The B/R left the area of 1B and ran over in-between the 3B line and their dugout to huddle with the team. About 60 sec later, they disbanded and the original B/R came back to 1B and stood on the base. It was only after this that the defensive coach came out to talk to me. He said that the B/R never touched first and is he allowed to appeal that. I told him that I agree he never touched first initially, but now he is standing on the bag. HE THOUGHT that the offensive team put in a pinch runner and that it was a different player (this ended up being incorrect). With the pinch runner information, I told him that to be honest I wasn't sure, so we got the PU involved, but he seemed even more lost than I was. Ultimately, we figured out that there was never a pinch runner, and that he appealed after the player went back to stand on the base, so we avoided calling him out. Coach wasn't upset cause he knew it was a really weird situation, but I know he wasn't convinced. And neither was I. I called my Assignor afterwards, and he basically said you can't call the kid out - ever. It's our fault for calling time before we let him touch first base. He told me I should have told the kid to touch first base when the timeout was called just to avoid any heartache. I tried to explain my understanding is that once a player passes the base, as an umpire I treat it as though he's earned that base, whether he touched it or not (obviously calling him out if appealed). He disagreed. I don't think my PU made a mistake, because he can't be expected to tell whether the guy tip toed around the base for 10 sec or not. It's not like he called a timeout prior to the kid reaching 1B. 1. B/R earned BB 2. B/R runs down to 1B and stands next to the bag for 10 sec while never touching it 3. PU calls timeout 4. B/R runs over to team huddle for 60 sec 5. B/R runs back to 1B and finally touches 6. Coach tries to appeal So I'm very curious what you guys think. Did we at least ultimately get the call right by not upholding the appeal? Is my assignor right in we should have done some preventative officiating? Did we mess up by granting time before he touched? If the coach would have appealed "mid huddle" do I have an out? If the offense did indeed put in a pinch runner, do that change anything? I'm really interested to get any insight about this situation, how we should/could of handled it differently, or the rules. EDIT: Just for fun, here's want I think/thought: If the coach would have appealed during the timeout and before the original B/R came back to touch, I would have called him out. If there was indeed a pinch runner, whether he was standing on the base or not, I would be inclined to call him out. (justification: in my mind, that pinch runner doesn't technically exist until the ball is put back into play) As it stood, I believe we got the call right, as I'm not going to call a kid out for abandoning the base path for going to a team huddle during timeout (yes, coach did ask for this as well). Also, my understanding is a runner has the right to "back track" and retouch during a dead ball (as long as he's not going back more than one base). Therefor the coach asking for a appeal after the B/R went back to stand on 1B is relevant. Quote
Senor Azul Posted March 15, 2024 Report Posted March 15, 2024 Here's a relevant rule to start things-- FED rule 2-4-2: ...The batter must go immediately to first base before time-out is called. Also see case play 2.4.2 SITUATION. Quote
RBIbaseball Posted March 15, 2024 Author Report Posted March 15, 2024 31 minutes ago, Senor Azul said: Here's a relevant rule to start things-- FED rule 2-4-2: ...The batter must go immediately to first base before time-out is called. Also see case play 2.4.2 SITUATION. But what if he doesn't? So what you're saying is it's as simple as my assignor said? A time-out cannot be legally granted until he touches 1B... period? In other scenarios, I've seen it argued that "reaching" the base is defined as moving to and past the base, regardeless of whether it is touched. Why would that not apply on a BB? ie He did immediately go to first base, he just failed to touch it. He was given 10 sec while dancing around the base to do so. btw I don't have access to that case play at the moment, so I'm not sure what it says. Quote
beerguy55 Posted March 15, 2024 Report Posted March 15, 2024 So, if DC appeals during the dead ball before BR returns to first it's definitely an out. I can't fathom why he waited until BR returned to first base to talk to you about. That's his error. You were right to rule the runner safe at the time of appeal. I also wonder if (ticky tack as it may be) you have BR "overrunning" first and not immediately returning to the base, which would be your call to make without requiring an appeal. The hypothetical pinch runner replaces the runner in all aspects, doesn't he? I'd say if the pinch runner touches first after the original runner misses it, even during a dead ball, you have a correction of the error, I think. eg. BR is rounding third, on a homerun award...he trips, misses third as he falls, and breaks his leg. The pinch runner comes in, touches third, completes the award...this would be allowed, I think. 4 hours ago, RBIbaseball said: Did we mess up by granting time before he touched? 1 hour ago, Senor Azul said: FED rule 2-4-2: ...The batter must go immediately to first base before time-out is called. Yes, but what's the remedy...you going to yell "no, time is not granted!" after your partner already called it...if that doesn't telegraph the reasoning you'll have a hard time explaining to your partner without giving up the goods. Not to mention calling "Time" might be a bell that can't be unrung. How do you signal to your partner proactively this weird scenario? Quote
SeeingEyeDog Posted March 15, 2024 Report Posted March 15, 2024 2 hours ago, RBIbaseball said: btw I don't have access to that case play at the moment, so I'm not sure what it says. 2024 CaseBook 2.4.2 SITUATION B1 receives ball four and B1 or a teammate or coach of Team A immediately requests time. RULING: The umpire shall ignore the request and order B1 to go to first base, after which a player or coach of Team A may request time. ~Dawg 1 Quote
maven Posted March 15, 2024 Report Posted March 15, 2024 7 hours ago, RBIbaseball said: 1. Did we at least ultimately get the call right by not upholding the appeal? 2. Is my assignor right in we should have done some preventative officiating? 3. Did we mess up by granting time before he touched? 4. If the coach would have appealed "mid huddle" do I have an out? 5. If the offense did indeed put in a pinch runner, do that change anything? 1. Yes. With the BR, now R1, standing on 1B, he has corrected his baserunning error. That can happen during a dead ball (touches during a home run trot count). 2. It's not preventive officiating to use proper mechanics—just officiating. 3. Yes. When PU tries to grant time, maybe stare at 1B and say, "Not yet!" 4. Well, you shouldn't. PU made the ball dead improperly, so we don't give the defense the unfair advantage of a dead-ball appeal. 5. Nothing material. 1 Quote
MadMax Posted March 17, 2024 Report Posted March 17, 2024 On 3/15/2024 at 7:21 AM, RBIbaseball said: If there was indeed a pinch runner, whether he was standing on the base or not, I would be inclined to call him out. (justification: in my mind, that pinch runner doesn't technically exist until the ball is put back into play) Wrong. Completely wrong perspective to take. This rationale is defeated by such a substitution (“pinch runner”) for an injury at the plate, such as a catastrophic HBP, or a batted ball going out of play (HR or GR2B) and the BR tearing his Achilles tendon, or blowing out his knee, prior to BR achieving 1B. A substitute can, should, and typically does enter the game at the point where BR left it. Injured BR does not have to touch 1B first; the substitute assumes and completes the BR’s base running duties for him. Certainly, if that substitute misses 1B while assuming & completing the award, then he can be called Out on appeal. In the same vein, the use of a Courtesy Runner or Pinch Runner does not absolve a BR of missing 1B, if he had, on a double or triple, and then the calling of Time for that CR/PR. In Fed, if the defense verbally appeals the missed touch of 1B, the BR is ruled Out (This presents a very curious question – if the defense appeals the missed touch (to, say, the BU) prior to the PU / UIC recording the substitution on the lineup card, is the (pending) substitution binding? 🤔) Back to the question at hand – it is (nearly) impossible to call the BR Out for not touching 1B when he – or his substitute – is standing on it. Quote
RBIbaseball Posted March 18, 2024 Author Report Posted March 18, 2024 @MadMax @maven Thanks for the explanations. Learned a couple things not directly related. Thanks I'm still confused, or should I say push back at the can't call time until he touches the base. It just doesn't seem logical to apply that verbiage and the simplicity of the only case play to say "Time can absolutely never be called before the B/R touches first base. @beerguy55 Mentioned he has an out if the coach would have appealed during the dead ball AND before the runner corrected himself. In my example, the runner stood "around" the bag for approximately 8-10 sec, and realistically there is no way an umpire from home plate knows whether he touched or not - but I do. So I call it preventative umpiring because the only remedy I can think of is to literally tell the player to touch the base. *** Let's take it one step further. Time Out is not called 8-10 sec after reaching 1B. But instead the runner finishes handing all his gear to the coach, then begins to lead off from first. The pitcher goes into the stretch and starts to take the sign and then the offensive coach asks for timeout. So according to this logic, the umpires can't grant timeout yet, cause the B/R never touched first.... what would you do ? And I don't think it's very far fetched, considering we were 95% there in my situation. Quote
beerguy55 Posted March 18, 2024 Report Posted March 18, 2024 On 3/15/2024 at 3:40 PM, maven said: 4. Well, you shouldn't. PU made the ball dead improperly, so we don't give the defense the unfair advantage of a dead-ball appeal. There's no real advantage, let alone an unfair one - B/R had every opportunity to touch the base both before and after Time was granted (which was requested by the offense, btw - for whatever weight one might give that). As you said, the B/R can correct his error during a dead ball, and in the OP did so, before the appeal was made. 1 hour ago, RBIbaseball said: So I call it preventative umpiring because the only remedy I can think of is to literally tell the player to touch the base. This is not preventative umpiring - this is assisting the player and it should be avoided...in principle, it's no different than telling the defense to appeal the missed base. Preventative umpiring would be overruling the PU's granting of time...and if feasible, doing it as discretely/proactively as possible without giving anything away....ideally before he actually says the word. Perhaps trying to get in a loud and assertive "no, play on" before the PU has a chance to respond?? But I think worst case is a "not yet" after PU says Time...and you might give away the reasoning to a savvy coach, depending on how insistent you have to be to either the PU, or the OC, but c'est la vie...at least you've administered the rules/situation properly. Quote
RBIbaseball Posted March 19, 2024 Author Report Posted March 19, 2024 21 hours ago, beerguy55 said: This is not preventative umpiring - this is assisting the player and it should be avoided...in principle, it's no different than telling the defense to appeal the missed base. Preventative umpiring would be overruling the PU's granting of time...and if feasible, doing it as discretely/proactively as possible without giving anything away....ideally before he actually says the word. Thanks for explanation. I wasn't using that term correctly. That makes sense. 21 hours ago, beerguy55 said: Perhaps trying to get in a loud and assertive "no, play on" before the PU has a chance to respond?? But I think worst case is a "not yet" after PU says Time... This is the part that seems a bit ridiculous to me. Same reason I wouldn't tell the kid to touch the base, I am basically giving it away and playing this "can you guess what's wrong" game with everyone on the field (including my PU). If the consensus is you can't grant time, period. Then I'd much rather just explain it to the coach as a mistake / inadvertent whistle if you will, over correctly the call of Time - in real time. 21 hours ago, beerguy55 said: but c'est la vie...at least you've administered the rules/situation properly. The reality is I may never seen this again in 20 years, but I had it in my head to call him out for sure if the coach appealed prior to the B/R correcting his mistake after the team huddle. My hang up is still that my PU, assignor, and three others on this thread are advising that would have been incorrect and against rule 2-4-2 that was quoted. So I'm still struggling with my stubbornness to feel confident I understand, until I get more explanation I suppose. Quote
beerguy55 Posted March 19, 2024 Report Posted March 19, 2024 2 hours ago, RBIbaseball said: My hang up is still that my PU, assignor, and three others on this thread are advising that would have been incorrect and against rule 2-4-2 that was quoted. I'm not sure you're interpreting the responses correctly...one said you shouldn't call the runner out at all because time was improperly called...others are simply quoting the rule, without remedy/comment on how to enforce it. There's consensus that you can't call the runner out after he's standing on the base. And I think there's consensus that a hypothetical substitute runner can correct the error. I would also argue that the rules and case plays above don't require the B/R to "touch" first base, but to only go to it - which would be consistent with other elements of the rule book that only require a runner to pass/reach a base to acquire it...not to necessarily touch it. In that respect, I think time was properly called, and all systems go. Maybe I'm wrong and maybe you shouldn't call the runner out in the hypothetical of an appeal made before the runner touches the base...but I would say, call the runner out on appeal (provided they haven't touched the base yet), and let the coach protest and see how the chips land. I agree, the problem I think is how does the BU who knows B/R hasn't touched first base yet communicate to the PU who thinks he has. But again, if the rule only requires the runner to pass/reach it, there's no reason to stop the PU from granting time. 1 1 Quote
beerguy55 Posted March 20, 2024 Report Posted March 20, 2024 On 3/15/2024 at 11:11 AM, Senor Azul said: Here's a relevant rule to start things-- FED rule 2-4-2: ...The batter must go immediately to first base before time-out is called. Also see case play 2.4.2 SITUATION. On 3/15/2024 at 1:53 PM, SeeingEyeDog said: 2024 CaseBook 2.4.2 SITUATION B1 receives ball four and B1 or a teammate or coach of Team A immediately requests time. RULING: The umpire shall ignore the request and order B1 to go to first base, after which a player or coach of Team A may request time. ~Dawg The purpose of the rule is to prevent a team from requesting (and being granted) Time while the walked batter is still in the batter's box....they want to keep the ball live until he's taken his award. And none of this documentation uses the word "touch". The walked batter is simply required to "go to" first base. Once BR reaches or acquires first base, even if they miss it, they will have met the requirements for the purposes of an umpire granting Time. 2 Quote
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