Non-Sharp & Direct Batted Ball Deflected Off Catcher and Caught In Flight

[Velho]

This may be silly on my part but at least we'll get it documented since a google search produces some different results.

NFHS for simplicity.

A batted ball caught “in flight” is an out.

A batted ball [edit: with 2 strikes] that goes sharp and direct off the catcher's mitt/hand (NFHS) that is caught by the catcher is an out. If caught in flight by any other defender it is a foul ball.

A foul fly ball that rebounds off the catcher can be caught by the catcher or another defender, e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2uGm6XEbLQ

A ball that doesn’t go sharp and direct off the catcher but is deflected and caught by any defender is an out. e.g. if the below bunt ball was knocked up in the air by F2's glove and then caught by F2 or F1 without touching the ground, batter, or umpire, it’s an out. 

Similar to above but more goofy looking: any non-sharp and direct batter ball going off the catcher caught in flight is an out, e.g. similar play as above but F2 doesn't move: bunted ball goes up, F2 doesn’t track it, bounces off F2’s mask/arm/shoulder, doesn’t touch anything else, and F2 or F1 catches it - we still have an out. Correct?

 

 

 

 

[maven]

6 hours ago, Velho said:

NFHS for simplicity.

🤣

6 hours ago, Velho said:

Similar to above but more goofy looking: any non-sharp and direct batter ball going off the catcher caught in flight is an out, e.g. similar play as above but F2 doesn't move: bunted ball goes up, F2 doesn’t track it, bounces off F2’s mask/arm/shoulder, doesn’t touch anything else, and F2 or F1 catches it - we still have an out. Correct?

What's the definition of "in flight?" If the batted ball after bouncing off another fielder is caught, still an out?

José Canseco play?

[noumpere]

7 hours ago, Velho said:

A batted ball that goes sharp and direct off the catcher's mitt/hand (NFHS) that is caught by the catcher is an out.

Really?  I thought it was a foul tip.  (Maybe it's a typo; maybe you were assuming two strikes before the pitch; maybe I'm worng).

 

If it's not "sharp and direct" then it's like any other batted ball in flight.  And, a deflected ball still in flight can be caught for an out.

 

The only "myth" is that some believe the ball has to get above the batter's shoulders (or some other such arbitrary point) -- and, at least in baseball, that's nonsense.

 

[Velho]

1 hour ago, noumpere said:

9 hours ago, Velho said:

A batted ball that goes sharp and direct off the catcher's mitt/hand (NFHS) that is caught by the catcher is an out.

Really?  I thought it was a foul tip.  (Maybe it's a typo; maybe you were assuming two strikes before the pitch; maybe I'm worng).

 

Yes, for third strike. Thanks. Edited the OP.

[Velho]

1 hour ago, noumpere said:

The only "myth" is that some believe the ball has to get above the batter's shoulders (or some other such arbitrary point) -- and, at least in baseball, that's nonsense.

Yes, I saw that on the interwebs (I hadn't heard of it).

I think that comes from the gap between a "sharp and direct" (OBR) or "direct" (NFHS) batted ball and a "fly ball is a batted ball which rises an appreciable height above the ground".

That gap is what I'm trying to close by clarifying that any batted ball which first makes contact with a catcher is either "[sharp and] direct" or it's not such that if "[sharp and] direct" and goes off an appropriate part of the catcher, the catcher can catch it for a live ball. If it's not "[sharp and] direct", it can go off any part of the catcher and be caught in flight.*

* Whether it qualifies as a "fly ball" or not.

I should have seen and noted this before but I see now that NFHS does clean up the circular nature of "foul tip" that OBR has (which is why the MiLB manual cleans it up):

"a foulball(2-16-1): touches any object other than the ground or any person other than a fielder; or
goes directly from the bat to the catcher's protector, mask or person without first touching the catcher's glove or hand;"

"sharp and directly" would be better but so would many other things

[Velho]

[double post for some reason]

[maven]

1 hour ago, Velho said:

[double post for some reason]

For emphasis?

Oh, you probably weren't looking for the reason...

[BigBlue4u]

On 3/11/2024 at 4:35 AM, maven said:

What's the definition of "in flight?" If the batted ball after bouncing off another fielder is caught, still an out?

H.S.: 2-6-1 "A batted or thrown ball is in flight until it has touched the ground or some object other than a fielder."

[TheLovejoy]

Just to get my bearing straight... OBR, can hit any part of the catcher, if he catches it, it's an out. NFHS, it must be the mitt/hand.

So in OBR, it's still a foul tip if with less than 2 strikes, it hits the bat, sharp and directly hits the catchers facemask, it's deflected toward the dugout somewhere and he tracks it and catches it. (not an out)
     in NFHS, that would be just a foul ball.

Correct?

In both OBR, and NFHS, the same ball deflected off the catchers mask, to the pitcher and caught in flight, is a foul ball?

[MadMax]

23 minutes ago, TheLovejoy said:

Just to get my bearing straight... OBR, can hit any part of the catcher, if he catches it, it's an out. NFHS, it must be the mitt/hand.

No. It’s a Foul Tip, in its defined form. The ball remains Live, and if there were two Strikes previously, then this is a Caught 3rd Strike (as opposed to an Uncaught 3rd Strike (U3K)). 

 

27 minutes ago, TheLovejoy said:

So in OBR, it's still a foul tip if with less than 2 strikes, it hits the bat, sharp and directly hits the catchers facemask, it's deflected toward the dugout somewhere and he tracks it and catches it. (not an out)
     in NFHS, that would be just a foul ball.

Correct?

Yes, but not quite. In NFHS, it’s a Foul Ball the moment it contacts the mask. The tracking & catching it is inconsequential. 

32 minutes ago, TheLovejoy said:

In both OBR, and NFHS, the same ball deflected off the catchers mask, to the pitcher and caught in flight, is a foul ball?

Yes. As soon as another player, or the umpire, makes contact with that potential foul tip (OBR (and NCAA) sharp & direct off any part of the catcher; NFHS, sharp & direct off the mitt or (free) hand of the catcher first ), it is rendered a Foul Ball. 

[Velho]

49 minutes ago, TheLovejoy said:

Just to get my bearing straight... OBR, can hit any part of the catcher, if he catches it, it's an out. NFHS, it must be the mitt/hand.

For comelinessL LL, though OBR based, did not change the foul tip rule. It is still hand/mitt.

OBR explanation here (I avoided it originally due to it being an outlier in the rule but I'd say we've percolated enough at this point)

 

 

[TheLovejoy]

@MadMax My apologies, I don't want to go back and edit it now since I misworded it, and you corrected it as I typed it. That first part was supposed to say, 'with two strikes'. 
So my follow up, the next part, I mentioned 'with less than two strikes'. I thought it, but didn't type it.

In your clarification to my 2nd part, the catching and tracking it is inconsequential in NFHS, because it is indeed a foul ball the moment it touches something else other than mitt/hand.

I try to keep the Fed rules in the back of my mind...but our seasons are like...2 weeks of high school baseball, then 4 months of American Legion (OBR) 🤦‍♂️