question is killing me.

[Coachhimup]

With bases loaded and one out, B1 hits a long fly ball to right field. R3 tags on the play and attempts to score. R2 has gone partway and retreats to second base. The throw comes into second base doubling R2 off the bag just after R3 scores. Does the run count? YES/NO

[ArchAngel72]

This one has been asked here about 100 times if not more..

 

I will try and find a link to one of them

 

I can tell you as a young ump (1st full year) a much older and more seasoned ump and I kicked this one so bad we even had the DA of our region give us the wrong answer.

 

Its actually one of the examples in the LL rule book

 

Here is one example of it.

 

 

[Coachhimup]

1 hour ago, ArchAngel72 said:

This one has been asked here about 100 times if not more..

 

I will try and find a link to one of them

 

I can tell you as a young ump (1st full year) a much older and more seasoned ump and I kicked this one so bad we even had the DA of our region give us the wrong answer.

 

Its actually one of the examples in the LL rule book

 

Here is one example of it.

 

 

I may be over thinking this.  Because I am looking at the bases being loaded.  Does R2 actually have to run? It is only 2 outs at the time, the  initial out as stated, then out 2 being the fly.  So he isnt forced is he? Does the run count, would this be a timing play and yes the run scores?

[Coachhimup]

1 hour ago, ArchAngel72 said:

This one has been asked here about 100 times if not more..

 

I will try and find a link to one of them

 

I can tell you as a young ump (1st full year) a much older and more seasoned ump and I kicked this one so bad we even had the DA of our region give us the wrong answer.

 

Its actually one of the examples in the LL rule book

 

Here is one example of it.

 

 

Or is this the "4th" out provision?

[Velho]

1 hour ago, Coachhimup said:

So he isnt forced is he? Does the run count, would this be a timing play and yes the run scores?

You got it. Trust yourself. R2 wasn't forced to advance so the appeal is a timing play.

1 hour ago, Coachhimup said:

Or is this the "4th" out provision?

Putting aside that there is no 4th out in your scenario, this would not be a 4th out since it's a timing play on a runner that didn't score. If R3 had left early and that was then appealed, that would be a 4th out and no run scores.

[maven]

17 hours ago, Coachhimup said:

I may be over thinking this.  Because I am looking at the bases being loaded.  Does R2 actually have to run? It is only 2 outs at the time, the  initial out as stated, then out 2 being the fly.  So he isnt forced is he? Does the run count, would this be a timing play and yes the run scores?

While the ball is in the air, yes, he is forced. But once it's caught, the BR is out, and all force plays are off. 

Think of it this way: once the batter is out on the catch, R2 may legally return to 2B, right? So he's not forced to advance any longer.

This is a retouch appeal play on R2. A retouch appeal can NEVER be a force play: if a retouch is required, that means the BR was retired on a caught fly ball, so all force plays are off.

So, yes, this would be a time play, and if R3 scores before R2 is doubled off—that is, before R2 is tagged out—then the run scores.

[maven]

15 hours ago, Velho said:

You got it. Trust yourself. R2 wasn't forced to advance so the appeal is a timing play.

Umpires should use the proper term: it's a 'time play'.

Would you call the alternative a 'forcing play'? No, it's a force play.  

[The Man in Blue]

@maven, as I started to read this:

1 hour ago, maven said:

While the ball is in the air, yes, he is forced. But once it's caught, the BR is out, and all force plays are off. 

I was thinking "He could make that a much better description if he just included a few more words . . . and then you dropped them a little later.

1 hour ago, maven said:

Think of it this way: once the batter is out on the catch, R2 may legally return to 2B, right? So he's not forced to advance any longer.

This is a retouch appeal play on R2. A retouch appeal can NEVER be a force play: if a retouch is required, that means the BR was retired on a caught fly ball, so all force plays are off.

 

 

As somebody who once got bit by that snake, I think we should make a concerted effort as officials to use this terminology as much and as often as we can in an effort to combat the "tag up force myth."

Runners are FORCED TO ADVANCE, but REQUIRED TO TAG UP/RETOUCH.

As we know in this avocation, language is important.  We don't want to be overly verbose*, but it is more dangerous to speak in shorthand when explaining a rule.

 

*Yes, I am making that joke on purpose.

[Kevin_K]

4 hours ago, maven said:

While the ball is in the air, yes, he is forced. But once it's caught, the BR is out, and all force plays are off. 

Think of it this way: once the batter is out on the catch, R2 may legally return to 2B, right? So he's not forced to advance any longer.

This is a retouch appeal play on R2. A retouch appeal can NEVER be a force play: if a retouch is required, that means the BR was retired on a caught fly ball, so all force plays are off.

So, yes, this would be a time play, and if R3 scores before R2 is doubled off—that is, before R2 is tagged out—then the run scores.

I'm not sure I agree that R2 is forced at any point At what point has R2 lost the right to occupy the base?

The ball never touched the ground so the batter runner never had a right or an obligation to occupy 1B, which would mean that R1 was not forced to advance and so on.

Forced runners are obligated to move to the next base. That isn't the case here, is it? (genuinely asking)

I know this may be verbal semantics, but am I mistakenly processing this?

[The Man in Blue]

@Kevin_K . . . I went through those same mental gymnastics.  What I settled on (in my head) was that the BR was advancing, which places a force obligation on the runners if  the catch is not made.  The BR cannot retreat if the catch is or is not made, he is simply "wiped out" if the catch is made, or receives the right to first base.  He cannot legally keep running past the runner in front of him, so the runner in front of him has some obligation (but not a requirement yet) to move on.  They could both be on first base at the same time waiting.  We are in this strange "space in between" where it isn't really one or the other.

My choice was to just overlook the point and not bring it up.  😋

[maven]

2 hours ago, Kevin_K said:

I'm not sure I agree that R2 is forced at any point At what point has R2 lost the right to occupy the base?

The ball never touched the ground so the batter runner never had a right or an obligation to occupy 1B, which would mean that R1 was not forced to advance and so on.

Forced runners are obligated to move to the next base. That isn't the case here, is it? (genuinely asking)

I know this may be verbal semantics, but am I mistakenly processing this?

R2 is forced to advance for the standard reason: the batter became a runner. The BR's "right" to 1B is moot, and not part of the definition of a force play.

Had the outfielder dropped the fly ball, could R2 have remained on 2B? Of course not: he's forced.

The force is not off until the ball is caught, at which time runners become obligated to retouch. Runners have to hedge their bets and judge the likelihood of a catch when they determine how far to advance on the fly ball.

Sometimes it's good to go back to very basic ideas and reconnect them in our minds. Thank you for the opportunity to think and talk through this connection.

[beerguy55]

On 2/24/2024 at 1:58 PM, Kevin_K said:

I'm not sure I agree that R2 is forced at any point At what point has R2 lost the right to occupy the base?

The ball never touched the ground so the batter runner never had a right or an obligation to occupy 1B, which would mean that R1 was not forced to advance and so on.

Forced runners are obligated to move to the next base. That isn't the case here, is it? (genuinely asking)

I know this may be verbal semantics, but am I mistakenly processing this?

 

 

On 2/24/2024 at 4:22 PM, maven said:

R2 is forced to advance for the standard reason: the batter became a runner. The BR's "right" to 1B is moot, and not part of the definition of a force play.

The batter becomes a runner when he hits a "fair" ball.   While in the air the ball is neither fair nor foul.  In this scenario the ball is not fair until the fielder touches it.  The runner is not forced until that point.  So there's about a microsecond where the runner is forced before the batter/runner is retired.