He gets two from where?

[Little Ott]

NFHS rules.  R1, 1 out.  B9 watches ball 4 go by.  He and R1 start for their advance bases.  F2 uses his mask to stop the ball.  Neither B9 nor R1 have reached their advance bases at that moment.  Place the runners.

I say R1 scores.  He gets his award for the base-on-balls then the 2 base penalty for the detached equipment violation.  My reasoning:

Detached equipment violations set up delayed dead ball situations so we have to wait for play to stop to make the award.  Wendelstedt says, p.122  "If when the defense gains possession of the ball, at least one runner is attempting to advance, the umpire will leave the ball in play until all action ceases, or until a runner is tagged before reaching his awarded base."

NFHS says: ART. 5 ... An award is from the base determined as follows:
a. If the award is the penalty for an infraction such as a balk, use of detached player equipment, or an illegal glove/mitt, the award is from the base occupied at the time of the infraction.

Does that mean if R1 speeds to second and gets there before F2 touched the ball with his mask he'll be awarded home, but if he jogs to second and doesn't make it before F2 goofs he only gets third?

What sez you guys?

Thanks in advance.

 

[MadMax]

1 hour ago, Little Ott said:

I say R1 scores.  He gets his award for the base-on-balls then the 2 base penalty for the detached equipment violation.

Nope. It’s a 1-base award… on a pitch. 

Detached equipment penalty is: 

• On a batted (fair) ball – 3 bases (if detached equipment is used to catch a foul fly ball, the penalty is simply “not a catch”; Batter returns to at-bat with a strike to the count as with any (other) foul ball)
• On a thrown ball – 2 bases
• On a pitch – 1 base 

So, your scoring of R1 is wrong. 

Additionally, awards don’t compound. For this, we look to the lodged ball rule. On a pitch, if the ball lodges in the backstop (wrapped in netting, goes into a padding crease, etc.), it too is a 1-base award. If that pitch is Ball 4, then BR’s award is still 1B. So for a forced runner, because he’s forced to advance by the Batter becoming a Batter-Runner and awarded 1st Base on Ball 4, the award is the same. 

So, in your scenario, R1 would be awarded 2nd Base. 

Now, this would matter if you have an un-forced runner. If, in your situation, you had R2 and/or R3, and no Force on, then Runners would advance 1-base as per the award of a Detached Equipment violation. 

Where this Keep-the-ball-Live vs. Kill-it comes into play, on a pitch, is in an example like this: 

– R1, R3 (outs don’t matter). Ball 4 is pitched in the dirt, and the ball starts heading away from the dirt circle. R3 makes a break for Home. F2 throws his mitt at the ball to stop it, does so, and retrieves the ball, readying to scoop it to the F1 covering the plate. The PU should point at this and call it as detached equipment. If the F2 merely stands there, R3 scores with no play on him, and R1 now on 2B and BR on 1B, then there’s no (additional) penalty (a PU should call Time at this point, acknowledge the violation, and change the ball). If R1 had reached 3B and/or BR had reached 2B (additionally), then the penalty award has been satisfied, and the bases achieved are a bonus. 
If, however, R3 was put Out on the play, then PU kills the play (“Time! Detached equipment (on a pitch). You (R3) score! You (R1) are there (2B) and you (BR) are there (1B).”) 

There is no compounding of awards. 

 

[Jimurray]

4 minutes ago, MadMax said:

Nope. It’s a 1-base award… on a pitch in OBR and NCAA

Detached equipment penalty is: 

• On a batted (fair) ball – 3 bases (if detached equipment is used to catch a foul fly ball, the penalty is simply “not a catch”; Batter returns to at-bat with a strike to the count as with any (other) foul ball)
• On a thrown ball or a pitch in NFHS– 2 bases
• On a pitch – 1 base 

 

 

Fixed your post

[Richvee]

2 hours ago, Little Ott said:

Does that mean if R1 speeds to second and gets there before F2 touched the ball with his mask he'll be awarded home, but if he jogs to second and doesn't make it before F2 goofs he only gets third?

Yes. It's 2 bases Time of Touch. If two runners were between the same base, the lead runner gets 2, the following runner gets one

[Richvee]

2 hours ago, Little Ott said:

NFHS rules.  R1, 1 out.  B9 watches ball 4 go by.  He and R1 start for their advance bases.  F2 uses his mask to stop the ball.  Neither B9 nor R1 have reached their advance bases at that moment.  Place the runners.

I say R1 scores.  He gets his award for the base-on-balls then the 2 base penalty for the detached equipment violation.  My reasoning:

Detached equipment violations set up delayed dead ball situations so we have to wait for play to stop to make the award.  Wendelstedt says, p.122  "If when the defense gains possession of the ball, at least one runner is attempting to advance, the umpire will leave the ball in play until all action ceases, or until a runner is tagged before reaching his awarded base."

NFHS says: ART. 5 ... An award is from the base determined as follows:
a. If the award is the penalty for an infraction such as a balk, use of detached player equipment, or an illegal glove/mitt, the award is from the base occupied at the time of the infraction.

Does that mean if R1 speeds to second and gets there before F2 touched the ball with his mask he'll be awarded home, but if he jogs to second and doesn't make it before F2 goofs he only gets third?

What sez you guys?

Thanks in advance.

 

As you can see, rule codes matter here. NFHS gives two bases for detached equipment on a pitch, whereas NCAA, and OBR is a one base award. 

[MadMax]

17 minutes ago, Richvee said:

As you can see, rule codes matter here.

 

So even in @Little Ott’s proposed situation, R1 ain’t scoring. At best, he’s at 3B. This Time-of-Touch/Infraction occurred when R1 and BR hadn’t yet arrived at their destined bases. 

 

[Senor Azul]

From the 2023 NFHS case book play:

8.3.3 Situation L:  With two outs and R2 on second, B4 strikes out, but the pitch gets by F2 and is rolling toward the backstop. F2 chases the ball down and stops it with the catcher's mask. Ruling:  This is a delayed dead-ball situation. R2 is awarded two bases from the time of the infraction at the end of playing action.

Also see online interpretations for 2006 Situation 5.

[Little Ott]

Thanks Gents.  If I ever coach again - the odds of that are between slim and none - I'll tell all my baserunners to sprint to the next base on a walk in case the catcher uses detached equipment to corral the ball.

Appreciate your work.

[Richvee]

1 hour ago, Little Ott said:

Thanks Gents.  If I ever coach again - the odds of that are between slim and none - I'll tell all my baserunners to sprint to the next base on a walk in case the catcher uses detached equipment to corral the ball.

Appreciate your work.

13 years and still waiting for my first detached equipment call. 😁

This guy has great informative videos on all things NFHS.  Here’s the one pertinent to your question 

 

[Richvee]

3 hours ago, MadMax said:

 

So even in @Little Ott’s proposed situation, R1 ain’t scoring. At best, he’s at 3B. This Time-of-Touch/Infraction occurred when R1 and BR hadn’t yet arrived at their destined bases. 

 

NFHS 2 bases time of touch. Let’s say the pitch rolls far away from F2.   If R1 has reached 2B, then F2 throws a mask and stops the ball, R1 scores. BR to 2nd, unless BR is already at 1b time of touch, then he’s getting 3rd. 

[MadMax]

4 hours ago, Richvee said:

then F2 throws a mask and stops the ball,

How/why would he do that, considering that his mask is a 1-piece, rather a challenge to get off, and something most HS catchers have been … conditioned … to jettison as soon as possible. 

Throw his mitt at it? That’s more believable. 

[Richvee]

1 hour ago, MadMax said:

How/why would he do that, considering that his mask is a 1-piece, rather a challenge to get off, and something most HS catchers have been … conditioned … to jettison as soon as possible. 

Throw his mitt at it? That’s more believable. 

Tomatoe: tomato. You get the point 

[Velho]

20 hours ago, MadMax said:

There is no compounding of awards.

BLAPSHEMY!

 

[beerguy55]

On 2/18/2024 at 9:26 AM, MadMax said:

Additionally, awards don’t compound

And in ruling that, the rule makers create a conflict, IMO.

On a bases loaded BB with two outs...if R2 rounds third base and is tagged out before R3 reaches home, the run still counts, because R3 is considered to have obtained the next base, pending only a legal touch.

IMO, TOT awards "should" compound, to align with the spirit of the above ruling, and to align with the spirit of the award itself.  If a baserunner on a walk is immediately considered to have reached the next base, a subsequent TOT award should start from there.

TOP awards would still be concurrent, and not stack; they are effectively two awards of the same base - eg. pitched ball four goes out of play.

*the above represents only the editorial opinions of beerguy55 and do not represent the thoughts of anyone else whatsoever.

[Zachary]

On 2/18/2024 at 3:39 PM, Richvee said:

NFHS 2 bases time of touch. Let’s say the pitch rolls far away from F2.   If R1 has reached 2B, then F2 throws a mask and stops the ball, R1 scores. BR to 2nd, unless BR is already at 1b time of touch, then he’s getting 3rd. 

What if BR has touched first base, but R1 has not touched second base? I assume the result would be BR only gets one base because R2 did not yet touch 2B?

[noumpere]

6 minutes ago, Zachary said:

What if BR has touched first base, but R1 has not touched second base? I assume the result would be BR only gets one base because R2 did not yet touch 2B?

In awards you always start with the lead runner  Advance him  If a following runner cannot advance because the base is occupied by a leading runner, then he stops at the next available base.