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FED Dead ball appeal


DevildogUmp

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The video of an Alabama softball player being called out on appeal for missing the plate on a homerun hit my Facebook feed (again) and got me thinking, in FED, when has a runner "completed their base running responsibilities" in order for an umpire to acknowledge a dead ball appeal in a case like this? I have dealt with a dead ball appeal w/ runners moving once and it was R2/R3 with a ball thrown out of play while R3 was attempting to tag up on a line drive. Both R2 and R3 were awarded their bases and the defensive coach wanted to appeal before they awards were complete and we allowed the runners to complete the awards before addressing the appeal (R3 never tagged so he was out on the appeal). 

Has the runner completed their running responsibility as soon as he passes the plate or do we give the runner the opportunity to immediately return or do they have until they enter DBT to return and still be considered completing their running responsibility?

YouTube video for reference: 

 

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They can return to the plates. As long as they have not entered the dugout or a runner has not passed/occupied the bag/ plate missed, after the runner that missed it

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13 hours ago, DevildogUmp said:

The video of an Alabama softball player...<snip>

I love the coaches statement at 0:46:  "that's not the rule!"

How many times have we heard that before?

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16 hours ago, DevildogUmp said:

Has the runner completed their running responsibility as soon as he passes the plate or do we give the runner the opportunity to immediately return or do they have until they enter DBT to return and still be considered completing their running responsibility?

I am interested in the answers here. Especially on an award of home or a home run over a fence, how soon/how far after a runner misses HP can they be tagged/appealed?

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Correct me if I am wrong. The video is NCAA rules. I didn't think they have dead ball appeals. As such the ball would have needed to be made live to have a valid appeal. That doesn't change the fact that the runner may have gone too far to correct the miss of the plate and going back to touch would be nothing. I would guess the umpire would signal nothing in that case.

I would bet the catcher indicated to the umpire that the runner missed the plate, which would have been a valid verbal dead ball appeal under Fed rules. The runner would be out before she makes it back to the plate.

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NCAA softball has dead ball appeals. Close Call Sports analyzed this play in May 2017 but didn't go into much detail for how it should be officiated for high school baseball. 

I haven't found any guidance as to when a runner has completed his base running duties in FED. It seems to be just umpire judgment. We know for sure that a runner is eligible to return to correct a base running error until he enters dead ball territory. And we know that the umpire must permit the runner an opportunity to complete his base running responsibilities. But when can the umpire accept a dead ball appeal?

I think the umpire should wait to determine the runner's actions. Once he judges the runner is satisfied with his running duties he should allow the appeal. 

If the runner doesn't show any inclination to turn around and touch the plate, he has completed his base running duties. A runner who is celebrating with teammates is displaying no immediate intention of returning to home plate to correct a base running error. Umpire judgment and then accept the appeal.

We discussed this question at least twice before. There were several contributors who said the appeal should be accepted as soon as the runner passes the plate.

Ask the Umpire--Bases Loaded - Ball 4 on 5/3/21

Ask the Umpire--Missing Home Plate 5/21/21

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5 hours ago, 834k3r said:

I love the coaches statement at 0:46:  "that's not the rule!"

How many times have we heard that before?

I have an internal coach-speak processor that has been grafted onto my brain after several seasons of tinkering...when I get the adjusted audio to that I hear, "Oh jeez...I can't believe that even though the rule book is available for me and my players to read. If only we had long bus rides or planes rides where we could all be reading the rule book...as well as having the UIC for this league being only a phone call or email away if I have any questions, here is another instance where because we can't be bothered to learn the rule, we have a call going against us. This stinks."

~Dawg

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On 1/5/2024 at 1:43 PM, SeeingEyeDog said:

I have an internal coach-speak processor that has been grafted onto my brain after several seasons of tinkering...when I get the adjusted audio to that I hear, "Oh jeez...I can't believe that even though the rule book is available for me and my players to read. If only we had long bus rides or planes rides where we could all be reading the rule book...as well as having the UIC for this league being only a phone call or email away if I have any questions, here is another instance where because we can't be bothered to learn the rule, we have a call going against us. This stinks."

~Dawg

I have said it many times before and I'll say it again:  We've heard it all, "You are the only umpire to have called that all year."  "My pitcher has been doing that all season and you are the only umpire to call him on it."  "I asked an umpire crew about this last week and they told me it was legal." "We've been using this bat all year and you are the only umpire who said it is not legal.  Blah, Blah, Blah.  I could go on forever with this stuff.  Bottom line:  This is what is called unverifiable information and the standard response is:  "That may be true coach, but this is what we are doing today."

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7 hours ago, BigBlue4u said:

I have said it many times before and I'll say it again:  We've heard it all, "You are the only umpire to have called that all year."  "My pitcher has been doing that all season and you are the only umpire to call him on it."  "I asked an umpire crew about this last week and they told me it was legal." "We've been using this bat all year and you are the only umpire who said it is not legal.  Blah, Blah, Blah.  I could go on forever with this stuff.  Bottom line:  This is what is called unverifiable information and the standard response is:  "That may be true coach, but this is what we are doing today."

Coach, you're talking about that play in the past? That play is over. We're talking about this play now and in my judgement, here's what I have...

~Dawg

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14 hours ago, BigBlue4u said:

This is what is called unverifiable information and the standard response is:  "That may be true coach, but this is what we are doing today."

I do not recommend this approach. It sounds arbitrary and capricious, which is exactly what coach is suggesting in the subtext of the report of his prior experiences.

Instead, stand on the rule: "Coach, this is the rule. If you'd like to share your email address, I'd be happy to send the citation after the game."

If what you're using is an interpretation rather than black-letter rule, it gets trickier, but it might still be worth sharing a resource. That way, coach knows (a) you're not using the MSU rulebook, (b) you put your money where your mouth is, (c) there's more to calling the game than black-letter rule, and (d) they have a link to that "more."

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2 hours ago, maven said:

Instead, stand on the rule: "Coach, this is the rule. If you'd like to share your email address, I'd be happy to send the citation after the game."

I wish this would happen more often. I use this approach sometimes, unfortunately most don't take me up on it. And often they are too "mad" and don't want to hear it, so I can only offer that approach sparingly. We should be able to have this kind of dialog among umpires and coaches, but unless the culture changes, most coaches are unwilling to be educated.

I also wish there were more protests. Someone will be getting educated, sometimes the coach, sometimes the umpire.

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  • 1 month later...
On 1/7/2024 at 6:23 AM, maven said:

I do not recommend this approach. It sounds arbitrary and capricious, which is exactly what coach is suggesting in the subtext of the report of his prior experiences.

Instead, stand on the rule: "Coach, this is the rule. If you'd like to share your email address, I'd be happy to send the citation after the game."

If what you're using is an interpretation rather than black-letter rule, it gets trickier, but it might still be worth sharing a resource. That way, coach knows (a) you're not using the MSU rulebook, (b) you put your money where your mouth is, (c) there's more to calling the game than black-letter rule, and (d) they have a link to that "more."

Oldish thread, but I'm sorta just catching up as the season is restarting.  I actually do basically this in my local 'league' play.  They are assigned by 1 of 2 people, and I always ask them to forward me the coach's contact info if there is a rules disagreement, so that I can explain the ruling with cites (often as far as quotes from multiple rulebooks depending on the consistency of the rule, case books youtube videos from CCS/others, and links to this forum!).

My one assigner tells me that she really enjoys reading what I write up as she learns every time!  After about 2 years of this, I was doing a 'district tournament' this year. We had a bit of a goofy play that I don't really recall, so my partner and I got together.  Partner wasn't really rules knowledgeable, but I used the chance to talk it out to him and make sure I had the ruling down perfectly.

I walk out of our conference and do whatever assignments, and am walking back to the plate where both coaches were waiting for the result.

HTC: Why would you do that, thats not the rule! (or some other such complaints)
VTC: Don't do it <HTC>, or he'll give you homework!
HTC: Wait, thats him?
VTC: *Nods*
HTC: Yeah, nevermind blue, good call.

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11 hours ago, ErichKeane said:

HTC: Why would you do that, thats not the rule! (or some other such complaints)
VTC: Don't do it <HTC>, or he'll give you homework!
HTC: Wait, thats him?
VTC: *Nods*
HTC: Yeah, nevermind blue, good call.

If that's the worst they ever say about you as an umpire, you've had quite a run!

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On 1/7/2024 at 8:23 AM, maven said:

Instead, stand on the rule: "Coach, this is the rule. If you'd like to share your email address, I'd be happy to send the citation after the game."

I'm not a huge fan of doing more work. Certainly, it's a personal preference...but I'm not convinced that most of them really care...or they already know and they think you're vulnerable...in that case, you're wasting your time. 

And even if you do provide the proper citation...then you have to climb the impossible..."but you can't call it in THAT situation" I'm in the camp of I'm gonna call it as I know it...if they want to look it up later, then they can put in the work. 

But...you gotta do what you gotta do in your neck of the woods. 

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On 1/7/2024 at 6:23 AM, maven said:

 

 

On 1/7/2024 at 6:23 AM, maven said:

I do not recommend this approach. It sounds arbitrary and capricious, which is exactly what coach is suggesting in the subtext of the report of his prior experiences.

You are kidding, right?

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  • 2 weeks later...
27 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:
On 1/5/2024 at 12:21 PM, Mussgrass said:

The video is NCAA rules. I didn't think they have dead ball appeals.

Unless I'm very wrong, all softball codes at all levels allow dead ball appeals.

It's a small percentage of games played but LL Softball is live ball non-verbal appeals (same as LL/OBR baseball).

In my area, ruleset - LL or USA - is a game by game decision 🤷‍♂️

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