Base on balls

[Gozer]

Ok, the bases are loaded in a little league game with the batting team leading 10-1 and 1 out in the bottom of the 5th with a 10-run mercy rule in effect. The batter is awarded ball four, but instead of going to first he begins celebrating with his teammates as the runner from third walks to home plate and touches it, and the celebration takes them out of the dirt circle surrounding home plate. What's the appropriate call if the batter never goes to first base to touch it? When has the batter runner abandoned his right to first base? Can he technically abandon his right to first base in this case?

The rules at all levels of baseball are quite clear that the batter runner must touch first to legally force the runners to advance, but the penalty for not doing so doesn't seem as clear. And after ball 4 the ball is still a live ball unlike a hit by pitch. Or passed ball third strike that leaves the playing surface.

[Kevin_K]

Game over. Go home. It's a kid's baseball game.

When one looks for trouble they find it.

And besides, there's only one out and R3 touched home plate thereby making the lead 10 runs. NOthing else matters.

 

[noumpere]

1 hour ago, Gozer said:

 but the penalty for not doing so doesn't seem as clear.

Apply this rule (which is designed for the "bottom of the last" , but works when a mercy rule is in effect.  It seems pre4tty clear to me.

b) When the winning run is scored in the last half-inning of a reg-
ulation game, or in the last half of an extra inning, as the result
of a base on balls, hit batter or any other play with the bases full
which forces the batter and all other runners to advance without
liability of being put out, the umpire shall not declare the game
ended until the runner forced to advance from third has touched
home base and the batter-runner has touched first base.
Rule 5.08(b) Comment: An exception will be if fans rush onto
the field and physically prevent the runner from touching home
plate or the batter from touching first base. In such cases,
the umpires shall award the runner the base because of the
obstruction by the fans.
PENALTY: If the runner on third refuses to advance to
and touch home base in a reasonable time, the umpire shall
disallow the run, call out the offending player and order the
game resumed. If, with two out, the batter-runner refuses to
advance to and touch first base, the umpire shall disallow
the run, call out the offending player, and order the game
resumed. If, before two are out, the batter-runner refuses to
advance to and touch first base, the run shall count, but the
offending player shall be called out.

[Gozer]

1 hour ago, Kevin_K said:

Game over. Go home. It's a kid's baseball game.

When one looks for trouble they find it.

And besides, there's only one out and R3 touched home plate thereby making the lead 10 runs. NOthing else matters.

 

That's not an answer but thanks for the input.

[Gozer]

35 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Apply this rule (which is designed for the "bottom of the last" , but works when a mercy rule is in effect.  It seems pre4tty clear to me.

b) When the winning run is scored in the last half-inning of a reg-
ulation game, or in the last half of an extra inning, as the result
of a base on balls, hit batter or any other play with the bases full
which forces the batter and all other runners to advance without
liability of being put out, the umpire shall not declare the game
ended until the runner forced to advance from third has touched
home base and the batter-runner has touched first base.
Rule 5.08(b) Comment: An exception will be if fans rush onto
the field and physically prevent the runner from touching home
plate or the batter from touching first base. In such cases,
the umpires shall award the runner the base because of the
obstruction by the fans.
PENALTY: If the runner on third refuses to advance to
and touch home base in a reasonable time, the umpire shall
disallow the run, call out the offending player and order the
game resumed. If, with two out, the batter-runner refuses to
advance to and touch first base, the umpire shall disallow
the run, call out the offending player, and order the game
resumed. If, before two are out, the batter-runner refuses to
advance to and touch first base, the run shall count, but the
offending player shall be called out.

Ahh I was looking through the rule book, but wasn't sure exactly where to look. This definitely explains it quite clearly, thank you.

[Senor Azul]

The rule cited is from the Official Baseball Rules (OBR). Little League rules are based on that rule set and their version of the rule is found in Little League rule 4.09(b).

To answer your other question, in Little League a runner must step into dead ball territory to abandon. For Little League that is almost always the dugout. So in your scenario if the batter-runner was still on the field he could be reminded to touch first base. Even if he is declared out upon a proper appeal it would only make two outs as Mr. Kevin K stated and the run would count.

 

[Jimurray]

2 hours ago, Kevin_K said:

Game over. Go home. It's a kid's baseball game.

When one looks for trouble they find it.

And besides, there's only one out and R3 touched home plate thereby making the lead 10 runs. NOthing else matters.

 

Yes in the OP with 1 out the run scores and the batter is call out. LL did not expound 4.09(b) when OBR added an explanation of the penalty:

"PENALTY: If the runner on third refuses to advance to and touch home base in a reasonable time, the umpire shall disallow the run, call out the offending player and order the game resumed. If, with two out, the batter-runner refuses to advance to and touch first base, the umpire shall disallow the run, call out the offending player, and order the game resumed. If, before two are out, the batter-runner refuses to advance to and touch first base, the run shall count, but the offending player shall be called out."

The question which I also asked off topic on another thread is whether the umpire requests/tells the batter to go to 1B as Childress advised thus making a refusal unlikely or does the umpire judge a "reasonable time" which then becomes the "refusal" and call the batter out with the run not scoring if it was the third out.

[Kevin_K]

4 hours ago, Gozer said:

That's not an answer but thanks for the input.

Explain how it isn't an answer.

OP has one out. R3 scores - "the runner from third walks to home plate and touches it". Even if BR is out for abandonment, R3's run scores. That makes it 11-1. Game over.

[Velho]

Also, unless league adopted a change, the regular season mercy rule is 8 runs after 5 innings (and 15 after 3, 10 after 4). My local is 15 after 4 and 10 after 5 as an example of how that can be changed.

[beerguy55]

On 11/18/2023 at 9:53 AM, Gozer said:

That's not an answer but thanks for the input.

It most certainly is an answer. Especially for this specific situation, where there was one out. Unless you want to start seeing if R1 and R2 also touched their bases.  Unless there's two out, it doesn't matter.   Let sleeping dogs lie. You're really going to the scorekeeper and saying "by the way, that kid is out of abandonment, don't give him the walk"?  This is also an appropriate answer on how to manage that exact situation.   The tenth run in a ten run mercy should be handled differently than the winning run in a tie game.

If you're looking to understand the rule so you know how to enforce it in a tie game in the bottom of the 6th of the LLWS, then you also have your answer if there's one out. And you have your answer from others if there's two out.  (and, frankly, with a ten run mercy I'd advise pretending you didn't notice unless the opposing coach says something - the likelihood is he wants to get out of there too - hence the guidance to not go looking for trouble - but if he wants to have the kid called out and continue the game, whether he just wants his team to get some more reps or he thinks he can win, that's his prerogative).

[Jimurray]

3 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

It most certainly is an answer. Especially for this specific situation, where there was one out. Unless you want to start seeing if R1 and R2 also touched their bases.  Unless there's two out, it doesn't matter.   Let sleeping dogs lie. You're really going to the scorekeeper and saying "by the way, that kid is out of abandonment, don't give him the walk"?  This is also an appropriate answer on how to manage that exact situation.   The tenth run in a ten run mercy should be handled differently than the winning run in a tie game.

If you're looking to understand the rule so you know how to enforce it in a tie game in the bottom of the 6th of the LLWS, then you also have your answer if there's one out. And you have your answer from others if there's two out.  (and, frankly, with a ten run mercy I'd advise pretending you didn't notice unless the opposing coach says something - the likelihood is he wants to get out of there too - hence the guidance to not go looking for trouble - but if he wants to have the kid called out and continue the game, whether he just wants his team to get some more reps or he thinks he can win, that's his prerogative).

R1 and R2 don’t matter unless we have a batted ball. We do have the last half inning of a regulation game and a walk. In any league where this might happen even with one out I would tell the batter to go to 1B so he would know the rule. I doubt he would refuse but if he did he would be called out. The scorekeeper will have to figure it out. I’m leaving.