Home plate obstruction resulting in missed base

[JWTW]

2 outs, runner on 3rd, ball is hit into play. Runner on 3rd advances home where catcher NOT in possession of the ball is standing on the 3rd base line about 1’ from home plate. Runner avoids the catcher entirely but fails to tag home in doing so. Catcher then catches throw to home and tags runner while he attempts to reach back and tag the plate after missing on the way by. Runner is called out. Is this obstruction?

[Tborze]

7 hours ago, JWTW said:

2 outs, runner on 3rd, ball is hit into play. Runner on 3rd advances home where catcher NOT in possession of the ball is standing on the 3rd base line about 1’ from home plate. Runner avoids the catcher entirely but fails to tag home in doing so. Catcher then catches throw to home and tags runner while he attempts to reach back and tag the plate after missing on the way by. Runner is called out. Is this obstruction?

Did the tag occur immediately following the OBS or, did the runner have time to touch following the OBS and failed to do so?

[noumpere]

And was the OBS the proximate cause of the runner missing the plate (It reads to me like that's what you intended to convey).

[maven]

Yes, that's OBS.

I won't change the requirements on R3—touching HP in a certain time frame—because F2 obstructed him. The entire need to go back to touch HP is (as I read it) the result of the OBS. 

Again, as I'm reading it, at the time of the tag (which presumably would be the end of playing action, as it would be the 3rd out), I'm calling time, ruling OBS on F2, and awarding the touch of HP to nullify the effect of the infraction.

This OBS call is essential to make. The runner properly avoided F2—and I usually make a point of telling him "good job" for that—and failing to get OBS here penalizes him for proper base running. Even had R3 gotten back to touch HP prior to the tag, call the OBS when it happens and let R3 know he played it correctly.

7 hours ago, JWTW said:

Runner avoids the catcher entirely but fails to tag home in doing so.

Not sure whether you are an umpire, but runners 'touch' bases, fielders 'tag' them.

[beerguy55]

3 hours ago, Tborze said:

Did the tag occur immediately following the OBS or, did the runner have time to touch following the OBS and failed to do so?

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong - and I often am - but if OBS is why the runner missed the base doesn't this absolve the runner of the requirement to touch the base - in any time frame?

As an example - Batter hits one to the gap, F3 standing on first base, B/R rounds first and to avoid F3 never touches first and continues on to second.  This is OBS and an appeal on the miss of first base would be denied, would it not?

As I visualize it I think the ump is acknowledging OBS as it happens, and R3 would get the run regardless of what happens next (as long as it's determined that OBS is what caused him to miss the base) - what's unclear is if there is a play at the plate as R3 was being obstructed, or if the ball came to the catcher some point after, in realizing they couldn't get B/R at first (which should have been the play with two outs)

[Senor Azul]

FED case play 8.2.5 Situation E:  R1. B2 hits a single to the outfield. As R1 nears second base R1 is obstructed by F6 causing R1 to miss second base. R1 is safe at third base. The defense then appeals that R1 missed second base. Ruling:  R1 is not out on appeal if, in the umpire's judgment, the obstruction caused R1 to miss second base.

From the 2021 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual (section 6.19, p. 109):

If a runner misses a base because of obstruction, an appeal of his missed base cannot be upheld if in the umpire’s judgment, the base would have been touched had the obstruction not occurred.

[Tborze]

@beerguy55

“what's unclear is if there is a play at the plate as R3 was being obstructed, or if the ball came to the catcher some point after, in realizing they couldn't get B/R at first (which should have been the play with two outs)”

This is what I was getting at. 
Didn't sound like a play at the plate. And, 1’ is kinda questionable for OBS. Maybe I’m seeing the play differently. Maybe no OBS at all? lol 

[BigBlue4u]

On 11/17/2023 at 2:53 PM, Tborze said:

This is what I was getting at. 
Didn't sound like a play at the plate. And, 1’ is kinda questionable for OBS. Maybe I’m seeing the play differently. Maybe no OBS at all? lol 

Ask yourself this: Why was the runner tagged out?  Answer:  He was tagged out because the catcher blocked the plate without the ball.  That is obstruction.  Result:  Obstruction, score the run.

[Tborze]

18 hours ago, BigBlue4u said:

Ask yourself this: Why was the runner tagged out?  Answer:  He was tagged out because the catcher blocked the plate without the ball.  That is obstruction.  Result:  Obstruction, score the run.

I 100% agree!  If it were that cut n dry. 
Ask yourself this, why wasn’t OBS called?  Maybe because it wasn’t!?  Maybe the call was missed?  

Just because F2 is standing 1’ from HP up the line doesn’t warrant an OBS call.  I was simply asking for more clarity.  
 

What does “runner avoids the catcher entirely “ mean?  Possibly he ran OOB to avoid a possible tag?  
 

Maybe the OP thinks that just because F2 was up the line without the ball, which in and of itself, isn’t OBS.  
 

Those are some of the things I asked myself!

 

 

[Senor Azul]

FED case play 8.3.2 Situation c-- F2 is in the path between third base and home plate while waiting to receive a thrown ball. R3 advances from third and runs into the catcher, after which R3 is tagged out. RULING:  Obstruction. F2 cannot be in the base path without possession of the ball, nor can F2 be in the base path waiting for a ball to arrive without giving the runner some access to home plate.

A case play found in the 2016 BRD on page 245--

R2. B1 singles. F5 obstructs R2 as he nears third. The runner misses third and is safe on a close play at the plate. The defense then appeals he missed third. Ruling:  In FED/NCAA, the appeal is denied. In OBR, it's umpire judgment.

Note:  But if the obstruction occurred several steps from the base, the OBR umpire would likely uphold the appeal.

 

 

 

 

[Tborze]

1 hour ago, Senor Azul said:

FED case play 8.3.2 Situation c-- F2 is in the path between third base and home plate while waiting to receive a thrown ball. R3 advances from third and runs into the catcher, after which R3 is tagged out. RULING:  Obstruction. F2 cannot be in the base path without possession of the ball, nor can F2 be in the base path waiting for a ball to arrive without giving the runner some access to home plate.

A case play found in the 2016 BRD on page 245--

R2. B1 singles. F5 obstructs R2 as he nears third. The runner misses third and is safe on a close play at the plate. The defense then appeals he missed third. Ruling:  In FED/NCAA, the appeal is denied. In OBR, it's umpire judgment.

Note:  But if the obstruction occurred several steps from the base, the OBR umpire would likely uphold the appeal.

 

 

 

 

“In the path” !  OP said nothing about F2 being in the path, just that he was 1’ up the line. Didn’t say in fair/foul territory or what path the runner took nor the level. Was this 8U?  
 

I am very well aware of the rules but most of the time it’s judgement, as in this case, and don’t want to discredit a fellow official for such a vague post. 
 

To say it was OBS according to the OP is presumptuous IMO 
 

 

[BigBlue4u]

1 hour ago, Tborze said:

“In the path” !  OP said nothing about F2 being in the path, just that he was 1’ up the line. Didn’t say in fair/foul territory or what path the runner took nor the level. Was this 8U?  
 

I am very well aware of the rules but most of the time it’s judgement, as in this case, and don’t want to discredit a fellow official for such a vague post. 
 

To say it was OBS according to the OP is presumptuous IMO 

Tbroze,  Food for thought:  Don't make this more difficult than it has to be.  I think everyone would agree if you SAW the play you would probably know exactly what to do. In reality, umpire judgment is a critical factor in the outcome of a play. The problem is, some plays are very difficult to relate. 

[beerguy55]

22 hours ago, Tborze said:

I 100% agree!  If it were that cut n dry. 
Ask yourself this, why wasn’t OBS called?  Maybe because it wasn’t!?  Maybe the call was missed?  

Just because F2 is standing 1’ from HP up the line doesn’t warrant an OBS call.  I was simply asking for more clarity.  
 

What does “runner avoids the catcher entirely “ mean?  Possibly he ran OOB to avoid a possible tag?  
 

Maybe the OP thinks that just because F2 was up the line without the ball, which in and of itself, isn’t OBS.  
 

Those are some of the things I asked myself!

 

 

You shouldn't need to ask yourself these.  Read the OP again.  The runner avoids F2 about a foot from home plate, and in doing so misses the plate.  It's pretty clear he missed the plate because F2 was in the way, and he chose not to contact F2.

There was no tag to avoid.  The throw came after - "Catcher then catches throw to home and tags runner"

Why didn't the ump call it?  Because he didn't know any better?  He didn't see it?  We still run into umpires, even seasoned ones, who want contact to call INT or OBS.  There could be any number of reasons it wasn't called, and he may be correct or not.  Based on the description - it's likely not.

Yes, this will be a judgment call.  The point all along was that IF this was OBS and if said OBS caused the runner to miss the plate, then he can't be appealed for missing that plate...going to your original assessment to how long it took R3 to decide to get back to the plate...it doesn't matter.

My only question earlier was whether the play was on R3 and the throw just came late (Type 1)*, or if the throw came after some failed attempt to get B/R and the fielder realized R3 had missed the plate (Type 2).   Simply to recognize why the play could continue after the OBS...which would have occurred at least a few seconds before the tag.  

*My understanding is in OBR F2 is still allowed to block the plate (unintentionally) if he is in the act of receiving a throw from a drawn-in infielder or pitcher (more likely the pitcher with 2 outs)...so this wouldn't be OBS in that one scenario.

[Tog Gee]

On 11/16/2023 at 11:32 PM, JWTW said:

Runner avoids the catcher entirely but fails to tag home in doing so

We often have to provide input on based on short descriptions of situations, which is tough. This quote tells us catcher was in the way.

If a runner has to change course to avoid a defender who doesn't have the ball, it's OBS.

[JSam21]

On 11/16/2023 at 11:32 PM, JWTW said:

2 outs, runner on 3rd, ball is hit into play. Runner on 3rd advances home where catcher NOT in possession of the ball is standing on the 3rd base line about 1’ from home plate. Runner avoids the catcher entirely but fails to tag home in doing so. Catcher then catches throw to home and tags runner while he attempts to reach back and tag the plate after missing on the way by. Runner is called out. Is this obstruction?

Rule set matters on this play. Where did this throw originate from? Sounds like the infield. If so, there is no violation of the collision rule by the catcher under OBR or NCAA rule sets. NFHS we have OBS. 

[beerguy55]

18 hours ago, JSam21 said:

Where did this throw originate from? Sounds like the infield. If so, there is no violation of the collision rule by the catcher under OBR or NCAA rule sets. 

I believe, at least for OBR, this is true only if all of these conditions are met:

• drawn-in infielder or pitcher
• there was actually a throw on the way when the hindrance occurred
• his position was a reaction to said throw
• hindrance was unintentional