Jump to content
  • 0

Balk or legal


JMGotts

Question

13 answers to this question

Recommended Posts

  • 0
1 hour ago, JMGotts said:

Runner on first, pitcher comes set, steps back

if "step back" means they "moved their pivot foot back off the runner" then they can do anything they want. The pitcher is now off the rubber and can no longer balk.

Stepping directly to the base in order to make a play only applies when make the pickoff throw from the rubber.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
34 minutes ago, Velho said:

if "step back" means they "moved their pivot foot back off the runner" then they can do anything they want. The pitcher is now off the rubber and can no longer balk.

Stepping directly to the base in order to make a play only applies when make the pickoff throw from the rubber.

Typo, obviously meant "moved their pivot foot back off the rubber".

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

Couple of high school case plays that might help--

6.1.3 Situation B:  Left-handed F1 assumes a set position with R1 on first. F1 steps back off the pitcher's plate with the pivot foot and throws to first base without stepping to the base. Ruling:  This is legal, provided F1's pivot foot touches the ground prior to separating the hands.

6.2.4 COMMENT A:  There is a distinction between "stepping off" the pitcher's plate and "stepping toward" a base. "Stepping off" means that pitcher has removed the pivot foot backward from the plate and has become an infielder. "Stepping toward" indicates movement of the non-pivot foot toward a base.

 

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
15 hours ago, JMGotts said:

Runner on first, pitcher comes set, steps back, throws to first baseman whom is 10’ toward second.

is this legal or is the pitcher required to step “directly” toward 1st base?

IF the question is really about whether F1 can throw from the rubber toward F3 who is 10' off first, then it depends.  F3 must be in a position to make a play (the specific wording varies by code). 

 

It's HTBT, but generally, I'd allow this -- 10' isn't that far from first and will be close to R1's lead-off position.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

Two issues: first, most restrictions on F1 that could result in a balk apply only when he is engaged with the rubber. If he legally disengages—his pivot foot steps back off the rubber and touches the ground prior to the other foot moving—then those restrictions lapse. In particular, F1 may throw the ball to any fielder (or feint a throw), within any applicable time limits. It won't matter where F3 is, because F1 is not subject to that restriction unless engaged with the rubber.

Second: if F1 is engaged, then yes, he must step and throw "directly" toward 1B when he picks there. This restriction does indeed prohibit F1 while engaged from throwing to F3 away from the base. By interpretation, F1 has satisfied the requirement to throw directly to the base when F3 is in position to make a play, though this restriction too needs interpretation (obviously, any fielder with the ball anywhere near a runner could chase him back to the base and so be making a play in some sense). Whether 10' satisfies this requirement will depend on level: for 10U I'd say no, but for HS and up it likely is. At 10' an adult-sized F3 with the ball can reach out and tag a runner diving back.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
4 hours ago, noumpere said:

IF the question is really about whether F1 can throw from the rubber toward F3 who is 10' off first, then it depends.  F3 must be in a position to make a play (the specific wording varies by code). 

 

It's HTBT, but generally, I'd allow this -- 10' isn't that far from first and will be close to R1's lead-off position.

I think the wording is not in the codes but in interps in the codes, some of which have differing interps within the same code. This thread has Hickox not liking Konerko being 10 feet away and not making a play. Konerko might actually have been deking and a play was on as the throw went pretty close to 1B:

Note there are 92 replies if you want to go down that rabbit hole. I don't think the video is available anymore.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
On 11/1/2023 at 9:41 AM, maven said:

By interpretation, F1 has satisfied the requirement to throw directly to the base when F3 is in position to make a play, though this restriction too needs interpretation (obviously, any fielder with the ball anywhere near a runner could chase him back to the base and so be making a play in some sense). Whether 10' satisfies this requirement will depend on level: for 10U I'd say no, but for HS and up it likely is. At 10' an adult-sized F3 with the ball can reach out and tag a runner diving back.

I may have just learned something here (and I need to update that pitching/picking/balking document I've been working on)

I, with my intermediate rules understanding, had thought 10 feet would be too far. As was stated it varies by level, but roughly that's allowed based on the F3's proximity to the runner? Just trying to understand this...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

Mr. Toggy, please don't get hung up on a specific distance. The figure of 10 feet is mentioned in this thread but as far as I know the FED only uses a specific number of feet in one place--an online case play/interpretation which is used only as an example.

Instead the parameter to be used is found in the current FED case book in play 6.2.4 Situation J. Its ruling states--

Proximity is umpire judgment and is based on whether the fielder is close enough to the base to legitimately make a play on the runner.

In FED it is a balk if a pitcher who is in-contact throws to the first or third baseman who, because of his distance from the base, is unable to try a tag against the runner. However, it is not a balk if an in-contact pitcher steps to first or third and throws over the base when the fielder is not in a position to make a tag attempt.

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
1 hour ago, Senor Azul said:

Mr. Toggy, please don't get hung up on a specific distance. The figure of 10 feet is mentioned in this thread but as far as I know the FED only uses a specific number of feet in one place--an online case play/interpretation which is used only as an example.

Instead the parameter to be used is found in the current FED case book in play 6.2.4 Situation J. Its ruling states--

Proximity is umpire judgment and is based on whether the fielder is close enough to the base to legitimately make a play on the runner.

In FED it is a balk if a pitcher who is in-contact throws to the first or third baseman who, because of his distance from the base, is unable to try a tag against the runner. However, it is not a balk if an in-contact pitcher steps to first or third and throws over the base when the fielder is not in a position to make a tag attempt.

Are you aware of a FED change this next year that doesn't allow feints to 3B? Otherwise in FED you can feint to 2B and 3B and thus throw to a fielder off the bag as long as you step toward the base if from the rubber.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
7 hours ago, Toggy said:

I may have just learned something here (and I need to update that pitching/picking/balking document I've been working on)

I, with my intermediate rules understanding, had thought 10 feet would be too far. As was stated it varies by level, but roughly that's allowed based on the F3's proximity to the runner? Just trying to understand this...

Look at the infield diagram in the back of OBR.  That shows the "cutout" by first to have a radius of 13'.  Most runners take their lead at about the cutout. Not that all runners, or all fields are the same, nor that 13' is some "magic" distance.  And, of course it's gong to depend on whether F3 is right behind / in front of R1, or is 10' toward right field, while R1 is 10' in a line toward second.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
36 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Look at the infield diagram in the back of OBR.  That shows the "cutout" by first to have a radius of 13'.  Most runners take their lead at about the cutout. Not that all runners, or all fields are the same, nor that 13' is some "magic" distance.  And, of course it's gong to depend on whether F3 is right behind / in front of R1, or is 10' toward right field, while R1 is 10' in a line toward second.

It's going to depend on the umpire and his understanding of the interps. NCAA rules being the most clear. FED caseplay helping slightly, Jim Evans balk video for OBR being pretty conclusive, J-R being in conflict, except many in the referenced thread about Ventura did not want to say that Hickox was wrong, MLB umpires always knowing the rules, or he didn't realize that a play was on because he called it before he even knew where the ball was going because he saw F3 10 feet off the bag. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

Thanks all. I am not hung up on defining specific distance number(s).

Just after reading some of the scenarios and specific distances listed I realized I fundamentally misunderstood how much leeway F1 and F3 had in terms of throwing away from first base (throwing up the line to 2B).

That's why I love this forum.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Answer this question...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...