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Trail runner passes lead runner, lead runner never advances on force.


NGuzman

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Hello everybody, coming from a coaches/umpire perspective. I had a weird instance the other night in an 8u Babe Ruth league game. For context the situation is a runner on second, and a runner on first with no outs. The ball is hit to the pitcher who attempts to throw the ball to third to get the lead runner out on the force, the pitcher overthrows the ball but the ball doesn't go very far past the base and ends up in the hands of the catcher. I will say this, The ball never goes to third. 
At this point the lead runner attempts to go back to 2nd base, and is passed by the trail runner before the lead runner reaches second. The trail runner is called out, but the explanation was because the lead runner returned to second the play becomes a force again and he must advance to third or be called out. At this point the play was called dead by the umpire which resulted in the umpire calling the lead runner out for failing to advance on the force. 
Is this the correct ruling?

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3 hours ago, NGuzman said:

Is this the correct ruling?

If I follow correctly, the end result was the original R2 was called out and the play ended with runners on second and first.

This is not correct. The original R1 should have been out for passing R2. However, there is minimal harm done since a) an out was properly called and b) the only impact was wrong runner is off the bases.

 

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Mr. NGuzman, did R2 (the lead runner) actually touch or pass third base (his advance base)? 

A runner is no longer forced (the force is removed) when such runner has touched or passed his advance base--or a trailing runner or the batter-runner is out. (There is an exception when a trailing runner is out for abandonment/desertion.) 

A force can be reinstated if the lead runner who had acquired his advance base returns past such base in retreat toward his time-of-pitch base. This is covered in OBR rule 5.09(b)(6)

...However, if the forced runner, after touching the next base, retreats for any reason towards the base he had last occupied, the force play is reinstated, and he can again be put out if the defense tags the base to which he is forced;...

I think the umpires in your game misinterpreted this rule about when a force is reinstated.

 

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7 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

Mr. NGuzman, did R2 (the lead runner) actually touch or pass third base (his advance base)? 

A runner is no longer forced (the force is removed) when such runner has touched or passed his advance base--or a trailing runner or the batter-runner is out. (There is an exception when a trailing runner is out for abandonment/desertion.) 

A force can be reinstated if the lead runner who had acquired his advance base returns past such base in retreat toward his time-of-pitch base. This is covered in OBR rule 5.09(b)(6)

...However, if the forced runner, after touching the next base, retreats for any reason towards the base he had last occupied, the force play is reinstated, and he can again be put out if the defense tags the base to which he is forced;...

I think the umpires in your game misinterpreted this rule about when a force is reinstated.

R2 never advanced to 3rd, after being passed by R1 between 2nd and 3rd, R1 was called out, while R2 returned to 2nd

7 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

 

 

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11 hours ago, Lou B said:

Once R1 passed R2 he is out.  As such, R2 is no longer "forced" to advance to third base since second base is now "open".

So, what happened after the Protest!  :)

Please don't say he called R1 out for passing R2 and R2 out for not advancing to third!

Thats exactly what happened after the protest unfortunately. We didn't want to hold onto it because of the age group and trying to be positive influences for our players. 

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Sometimes umpires get confused by strange, unusual plays.

The out for passing is immediate, and the ball remains live. The other piece the umpire needed to remember is that all force plays are off when a trailing runner is retired—think of a bases-loaded ground ball to F3, who steps on 1B to retire the batter runner. When F3 throws to another base, the fielder's should all be calling "TAG!" to remind themselves that all forces are off.

Also: a runner is never out for "failing to advance." That's not a thing (in baseball). But failing to advance usually makes playing on that runner much easier.

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5 hours ago, NGuzman said:

Thats exactly what happened after the protest unfortunately. We didn't want to hold onto it because of the age group and trying to be positive influences for our players. 

You Protest to give the umpires a chance to talk it over and get the call right.  Don't live with an incorrect call.  Umpires make mistakes, if not corrected they could get it wrong again the next time it happens.

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2 hours ago, noumpere said:

Fall ball is a learning experience for the players AND for the umpires.

@NGuzman exactly for this reason you should follow up with your umpire and assigner or umpire-in-chief to clarify the situation. Help them become better, now that you know the proper ruling.  Sometimes it helps jog an umpires memory if you use rule book language when asking about a call, so really understanding the rules will help you out there!

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