Time Between innings.

[BigBlue4u]

I noticed that in the yet to be published 2024 NFHS rule book, a mention of 1 minute 20 seconds between innings.  I must have missed something.  Is this an unannounced change or did I miss it somewhere?

[umpstu]

1 hour ago, BigBlue4u said:

I noticed that in the yet to be published 2024 NFHS rule book, a mention of 1 minute 20 seconds between innings.  I must have missed something.  Is this an unannounced change or did I miss it somewhere?

I hadn't seen that

[Jimurray]

2 hours ago, BigBlue4u said:

I noticed that in the yet to be published 2024 NFHS rule book, a mention of 1 minute 20 seconds between innings.  I must have missed something.  Is this an unannounced change or did I miss it somewhere?

Is that timed from the first throw and/or third out as appropriate? It would be a change in any case.

[Senor Azul]

Do you recall where exactly you saw this? I ask because I searched and haven't found anything like that yet. Current rule 6-2-2c Exception was not listed anywhere as being amended.

Could it have been mentioned in the Points of Emphasis? Or perhaps in the Suggested Speed-Up Rules? I did find a change in the Speed-Up Rules and of course each individual state association has to adopt speed-up rules.

[BigBlue4u]

Here it is.  It's in the seventh paragraph of 2024 Points of Emphasis

Time Between Half-Innings (6-2-2 EXCEPTION)
There are a lot of moving pieces in between half-innings. By rule, the time from the last
out to the next pitch is 1 minute and 20 seconds The role of the umpire is to facilitate the
defense getting into place, the pitcher warming up and start the inning. There is no place
for visiting with the fans or having an extended discussion with the other umpire(s).

 

 

[refump10]

So they reiterate a rule that most (all) of the country has decided is unenforceable because it is not realistic and is thus ignored. 
 

Just adopt the NCAA rule already!  It works to speed up games (which is the point) and is well within the abilities of teams to comply. 

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, refump10 said:

So they reiterate a rule that most (all) of the country has decided is unenforceable because it is not realistic and is thus ignored. 
 

Just adopt the NCAA rule already!  It works to speed up games (which is the point) and is well within the abilities of teams to comply. 

I've had issues with NFHS POEs before but did this one go over your heads? It's possible since there have been a few where I swear they give the job to write it to someone who does not know baseball and has english as a second language. But this is what the unseasoned writer should have written: "There is no place or visiting with the fans or having an extended discussion with the other umpire(s)."

And added PU counting warmups, backed up by BU when PU is occupied. Also walking into B after a base hit or walk or walking back to 1B after runners are cleared while the pitcher and all are waiting to get the ball in play. I will put it in play with the BU still walking knowing that he will be turned around as the pitch is on the way. We can keep the 1 or 1:20 in our hip pocket but you can keep the game moving with your demeanor without ever timing anything. As an aside few of you commented on a CWS PU who missed two going to the mouth violations, most likely because he was focused on the pitch clock.

[MadMax]

3 hours ago, BigBlue4u said:

There is no place for visiting with the fans or having an extended discussion with the other umpire(s).

Wow!  They (Fed) actually put this line in the Rulebook?!?! I’m astounded!! And deeply appreciative!!! Since, I now have codified backing / support / ammunition to scold my partner about his dilly-dallying and chatting up the fence!! 

1 hour ago, Jimurray said:

I've had issues with NFHS POEs before but did this one go over your heads?

In fairness, our state (AZ) was the first to implement it in 2023. Our director of HS umpires is a NCAA umpire, and he got our state commissioner’s blessing to implement a pitch clock and a between-innings clock. The NFHS took the teeth out of the pitch clock “rule” because there wasn’t a codified compulsion for the batter to be “alert / ready” at 10 seconds (like NCAA), nor was there any limit to “resets” by the pitcher (like NCAA (1, but infinite pickoff throws) or MLB (2 including pickoffs)). It was definitely a working trial. 

The NFHS recommended(?) or directed(?… I’m searching for applicable words) is to use 1 minute between innings. As our state leadership estimated that was way too short, we lengthened it to 1 minute, 30 seconds, with a high degree of leniency. More often than not, we (umpires) would be limiting the warmup pitches of the returning pitcher (we would never limit the pitches of a new pitcher), or urging players to get ready. We were directed by state leadership to be proactive, personable, yet firm with the sense of urgency. Several of us working umpires who did NCAA and NFHS (such as myself) were told to “educate and guide” all parties – coaches, players, and fellow umpires. One of my personal campaigns was to make Plate Umpires aware of and be proactive about defensive substitutions. Get over near the team going on defense, identify where the Head Coach is, and inquire if needed – “Coach, any subs?”. This would cut down – dramatically – the amount of between-inning idle time, because in the past, that Plate Umpire would doddle around, check his tote at the fence, then amble over to the offensive side of the home plate area, count off the last of the warmup pitches, and then the DHC would approach with substitutions. 1:30 became 3:00 minutes, just like that 🫰 <snap>. 

Arizona ran this pitch & inning clock from first pitch of the season, thru the playoffs, to the championships. Several of us multi-level umpires were purposely positioned at U3 in the 3- & 4- man playoff games because we knew how to run the clock so consistently. 

[lawump]

14 hours ago, MadMax said:

Wow!  They (Fed) actually put this line in the Rulebook?!?! I’m astounded!! And deeply appreciative!!! Since, I now have codified backing / support / ammunition to scold my partner about his dilly-dallying and chatting up the fence!! 

In fairness, our state (AZ) was the first to implement it in 2023. Our director of HS umpires is a NCAA umpire, and he got our state commissioner’s blessing to implement a pitch clock and a between-innings clock. The NFHS took the teeth out of the pitch clock “rule” because there wasn’t a codified compulsion for the batter to be “alert / ready” at 10 seconds (like NCAA), nor was there any limit to “resets” by the pitcher (like NCAA (1, but infinite pickoff throws) or MLB (2 including pickoffs)). It was definitely a working trial. 

The NFHS recommended(?) or directed(?… I’m searching for applicable words) is to use 1 minute between innings. As our state leadership estimated that was way too short, we lengthened it to 1 minute, 30 seconds, with a high degree of leniency. More often than not, we (umpires) would be limiting the warmup pitches of the returning pitcher (we would never limit the pitches of a new pitcher), or urging players to get ready. We were directed by state leadership to be proactive, personable, yet firm with the sense of urgency. Several of us working umpires who did NCAA and NFHS (such as myself) were told to “educate and guide” all parties – coaches, players, and fellow umpires. One of my personal campaigns was to make Plate Umpires aware of and be proactive about defensive substitutions. Get over near the team going on defense, identify where the Head Coach is, and inquire if needed – “Coach, any subs?”. This would cut down – dramatically – the amount of between-inning idle time, because in the past, that Plate Umpire would doddle around, check his tote at the fence, then amble over to the offensive side of the home plate area, count off the last of the warmup pitches, and then the DHC would approach with substitutions. 1:30 became 3:00 minutes, just like that 🫰 <snap>. 

Arizona ran this pitch & inning clock from first pitch of the season, thru the playoffs, to the championships. Several of us multi-level umpires were purposely positioned at U3 in the 3- & 4- man playoff games because we knew how to run the clock so consistently. 

My two cents:

I personally feel that a pitch clock/inning clock is completely and utterly unnecessary on the high school level.  The games are already two innings shorter, and unlike professional or Power-5 NCAA we're not dealing with any media timeouts.  With that said, I do harp on my umpires that you have to continue to work between innings.  However, I do NOT tell them to keep a clock.  Rather, I tell them to count the five pitches...giving a warning to F1 or F2 after 4 pitches to "throw down"...and then resume the game.   And, if a pitcher is slow coming out to warm-up, I tell my umpires to reduce the pitcher's number of warm-ups (unless it's a new pitcher as we don't want an injury due to not being allowed to loosen up) and the pitcher will then learn his lesson and get out quicker the next inning.

I mean, 95% of my NFHS games this past year (all of which are varsity) had a game time between 1:45 and 2:15.  I had one 1:25 (playoff game between two good teams) and I had a couple of really good games go 2:30 to 2:45 (one was extra innings).  Do we really need a clock?  I find this to be a solution in need of a problem.  (And, as for sub-varsity...which, admittedly, can have some really long games...South Carolina is instituting time limits in 2024 which means pitch clocks, etc., are not needed).  Even the games that are traditionally the longest (a really good team against a mediocre team) are significantly shortened in South Carolina (and most states) with the [15-run (after 3 innings) and 10-run (after 5 innings)] mercy rule.  

Not everything that is good for NCAA is good for NFHS.  For me, this is one of those instances.

(PS I love the part about being proactive about defensive subs).

[maven]

16 hours ago, lawump said:

However, I do NOT tell them to keep a clock.  Rather, I tell them to count the five pitches...giving a warning to F1 or F2 after 4 pitches to "throw down"...and then resume the game.   And, if a pitcher is slow coming out to warm-up, I tell my umpires to reduce the pitcher's number of warm-ups (unless it's a new pitcher as we don't want an injury due to not being allowed to loosen up) and the pitcher will then learn his lesson and get out quicker the next inning.

This is exactly how we train. I personally have allowed an especially slow F1 just 1 warmup pitch. Funnily, he jogged out the next inning and immediately started warming up.

Time between innings is the biggest time waster in HS baseball. Umpires who allow each team just 2 extra minutes per inning end up adding almost half an hour to their game's run time (2 minutes x 2 teams x 6 innings after the first = 24 minutes). 

Guys jibber-jabber with everyone and his mother between innings and then bîtch about their game taking 2:45. Lah me.

[noumpere]

40 minutes ago, maven said:

 

Time between innings is the biggest time waster in HS baseball.

 

That and keeping batters in the box (or getting them back in when they're allowed to be out).  It's not just the time the batter is out of the box -- keeping the batter in early gets both teams in a rhythm and you get better pitching, hitting and defense.

 

Saving 15 seconds an at-bat will shorten the game time by 15 minutes

[SeeingEyeDog]

18 hours ago, lawump said:

My two cents:

With that said, I do harp on my umpires that you have to continue to work between innings.  However, I do NOT tell them to keep a clock.  Rather, I tell them to count the five pitches...giving a warning to F1 or F2 after 4 pitches to "throw down"...and then resume the game.   And, if a pitcher is slow coming out to warm-up, I tell my umpires to reduce the pitcher's number of warm-ups (unless it's a new pitcher as we don't want an injury due to not being allowed to loosen up) and the pitcher will then learn his lesson and get out quicker the next inning.

I mean, 95% of my NFHS games this past year (all of which are varsity) had a game time between 1:45 and 2:15.  I had one 1:25 (playoff game between two good teams) and I had a couple of really good games go 2:30 to 2:45 (one was extra innings).  Do we really need a clock?  I find this to be a solution in need of a problem.  (And, as for sub-varsity...which, admittedly, can have some really long games...South Carolina is instituting time limits in 2024 which means pitch clocks, etc., are not needed).

This...right here...all day long. Concerns about the time for HS games may be market specific however, several of the HS conferences in my market instituted a no-new 1:50 and drop at 2:00 for JV games. And then most importantly, the AD's have all taken an active role in this. (Obviously, they have a self-interest here because they can't go home until the game is over.) But, I had AD's marching right out on the field to tell all of us, "Time has expired. The ballgame is over." and nobody complained...not one word. The feedback on this is so good, my state's athletic association is in discussion to roll this out statewide next spring.

~Dawg

[lawump]

16 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

This...right here...all day long. Concerns about the time for HS games may be market specific however, several of the HS conferences in my market instituted a no-new 1:50 and drop at 2:00 for JV games. And then most importantly, the AD's have all taken an active role in this. (Obviously, they have a self-interest here because they can't go home until the game is over.) But, I had AD's marching right out on the field to tell all of us, "Time has expired. The ballgame is over." and nobody complained...not one word. The feedback on this is so good, my state's athletic association is in discussion to roll this out statewide next spring.

~Dawg

Seriously, the President of our state's baseball coaches association reached out to us two years ago and asked us if we would object if they petitioned our state league to institute time limits on sub-varsity games.  After we finished laughing ("object?????") we told him "hell no"!  Apparently, they petitioned too late to get it instituted for 2023, but it should be starting in 2024.  

[834k3r]

19 hours ago, lawump said:

I find this to be a solution in need of a problem.

Isn't that NFHS's motto?

[SeeingEyeDog]

2 hours ago, lawump said:

Seriously, the President of our state's baseball coaches association reached out to us two years ago and asked us if we would object if they petitioned our state league to institute time limits on sub-varsity games.  After we finished laughing ("object?????") we told him "hell no"!  Apparently, they petitioned too late to get it instituted for 2023, but it should be starting in 2024.  

I know the schools both private and public don't like to acknowledge that travel sports exist but, what's puzzling about the lack of time limits in HS baseball is...most (not all) high school baseball and softball players play travel ball and most travel leagues have time limits. (Admittedly, part of this is because schedulers are trying to jam 8+ games on the same field in one day...) but, overall these players, parents, coaches and yes, we umpires are all conditioned that youth baseball has a time limit. Not sure why this has taken so long to implement...

~Dawg

[maven]

1 hour ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

I know the schools both private and public don't like to acknowledge that travel sports exist but, what's puzzling about the lack of time limits in HS baseball is...most (not all) high school baseball and softball players play travel ball and most travel leagues have time limits. (Admittedly, part of this is because schedulers are trying to jam 8+ games on the same field in one day...) but, overall these players, parents, coaches and yes, we umpires are all conditioned that youth baseball has a time limit. Not sure why this has taken so long to implement...

~Dawg

That's a different kind of time limit.

A game limit merely ends a game early if reached. It doesn't affect pace of play, so it has little impact on the quality of play. It simply assures the umpire that the misery will have a definite end.

An inning limit improves the pace of play, as does the batters box rule. These are the second and third best ways to improve the quality of play.

[The Man in Blue]

On 9/19/2023 at 8:27 PM, BigBlue4u said:

Here it is.  It's in the seventh paragraph of 2024 Points of Emphasis

Time Between Half-Innings (6-2-2 EXCEPTION)
There are a lot of moving pieces in between half-innings. By rule, the time from the last
out to the next pitch is 1 minute and 20 seconds The role of the umpire is to facilitate the
defense getting into place, the pitcher warming up and start the inning. There is no place
for visiting with the fans or having an extended discussion with the other umpire(s).

 

 

Before I even read the rest of the comments …

 60 seconds between innings.

+20 seconds for the pitcher to pitch
________
80 seconds from the end of the inning to the delivery of the pitch.  
 

Not 80 seconds between innings.  Nothing new other than a goofy way of wording that.

[BigBlue4u]

On 9/21/2023 at 3:28 PM, The Man in Blue said:

Before I even read the rest of the comments …

 60 seconds between innings.

+20 seconds for the pitcher to pitch
________
80 seconds from the end of the inning to the delivery of the pitch.  
 

Not 80 seconds between innings.  Nothing new other than a goofy way of wording that.

Man in Blue,  that's very good and it makes perfect sense.  Thanks for clearing that up.

[maven]

On 9/21/2023 at 2:11 PM, maven said:

An inning limit improves the pace of play, as does the batters box rule. These are the second and third best ways to improve the quality of play.

Hm. It's been nearly a week, and nobody is going to bite on this? Man, this board is slipping....

Either that, or my job is done here?

[Thunderheads]

3 hours ago, maven said:

Hm. It's been nearly a week, and nobody is going to bite on this? Man, this board is slipping....

Either that, or my job is done here?

OK, I'll bite, ... what's the BEST way to improve the quality of play?  I don't want you to feel unwanted, @maven 😉

[maven]

That's kind, Jeff. I just figured everyone had absorbed my wisdom.

The BEST way to improve play in a baseball game—any level—is...

 

Call more strikes.

Pitchers get more confident, get to their secondary pitches more (so they're better), and starters (the better pitchers on any team) stay in the game longer. Better pitching is the best way to improve pace and quality of play.

Batters have to swing the bat more, putting the ball in play more, keeping the fielders in the game, leading to more outs on the bases and fewer errors.

Every walk adds 5 minutes to a baseball game. Fewer walks yields quicker baseball, and quicker baseball is better.

Pitching is hard. Every borderline pitch should be a strike. If we call a ball a strike, coach tells his batter to swing; if we call a strike a ball, coach is after us, not F1.  

[JonnyCat]

On 9/21/2023 at 11:11 AM, maven said:

An inning limit improves the pace of play, as does the batters box rule. These are the second and third best ways to improve the quality of play.

Yes, I am slipping! I read this and it just didn't even click with me. No one has ever accused me of being a rocket scientistry!

And you are 100% correct, call more strikes!

[johnnyg08]

On 9/21/2023 at 6:34 AM, maven said:

Lah me.

Shout out to Papa C! RIP Carl

[boyinr]

On 9/19/2023 at 10:25 PM, refump10 said:

So they reiterate a rule that most (all) of the country has decided is unenforceable because it is not realistic and is thus ignored. 

We have done this for several years. Works great. It’s a rule. It’s as enforceable as any other rule. 

[The Man in Blue]

2 hours ago, boyinr said:

We have done this for several years. Works great. It’s a rule. It’s as enforceable as any other rule. 

 

Agree with @boyinr, the rule works great as long as you enforce it and enforce consistently. 

Coach, I can't help it if the last guy didn't enforce it, but I am.  And, since we are talking, get your buckets off the field.