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How long before ejections result in First Amendment suits?


flyingron

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Ejections, and what happened here are very different, and have no correlation (MY opinion). 

That being said, .... Let's be careful w/ this post and responses.   I'm going to keep a very close eye on this post as we don't need a political debate here.  I guess I should say, we won't have a political debate here.

Thanks in advance for your cooperation

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3 minutes ago, flyingron said:

Well, it wasn't an umpire ejection, but the principles aren't that removed.   He was warned not to argue his kid's playing time anymore and when he continued, they barred him from the games.

So ... the dad files a lawsuit?  Geeeeez ...

Anyhow, ... actually, they are removed as an ejection is based upon rules attributed to the game at hand.  For me, that's the difference

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1 hour ago, Thunderheads said:

That being said, .... Let's be careful w/ this post and responses.   I'm going to keep a very close eye on this post as we don't need a political debate here.  I guess I should say, we won't have a political debate here.

The article does go out of it's way to mention which president appointed which judges.:fuel:

Did I just get political again? Damnit, I hate myself! :wacko:

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24 minutes ago, flyingron said:

Well, it wasn't an umpire ejection, but the principles aren't that removed.   

🤔… the principal wasn’t removed, the article said the Principal saw Parent at the game, and had him removed. 

Yeah, I know. Semantics. :blah  
Anyway, that removal and barring is under the purview (I cannot say “rights”, which is being disputed) of the school and school district, not the/an umpire. At no point should an umpire be going “into the stands” (metaphorically) to remove a member of the public. MLBUs are operating within a different context if/when those moments have occurred in MLB history. 

That authority and action must be on the Game Administration. I even have issue with the “out of sight and sound” protocol on ejections. Why? Because that seems to convey that there isn’t an authority (person(s), not “of an umpire”) present that can administer the removal of the ejected party. NFHS has gotten away with it for years, under the auspices of deigning the PU the UIC Deity. Umpires have operated-in-kind – “Not on my game, not on my field.” 

That just cannot continue. 

If a game administrator, staff, or even a coach was to approach me (as an umpire), notifying me of an unruly fan, or a parent causing an issue or scene with one of the teams, or that LEOs will need to be summoned, I will absolutely accommodate whatever is in the best integrity of the game, so as to complete the game (say the HC requests to leave, temporarily, so as to mitigate the issue with the parent; “Sure thing, Coach, go ahead, we’ll work with Jimmy (Assistant Coach) in the meantime, [and we’ll ignore all those inane “everyone – that’s you Coach – has to be in the dugout” directives that riddle amateur baseball rules 😎]” 

But anything outside the fence? Not my purview. 

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4 minutes ago, MadMax said:

But anything outside the fence? Not my purview. 

That's my take, too--but several of my peers in my area hold fast to the NFHS-anointed model. There are several games around here where the only game administrator/school official is the HT manager.

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That's my take, too--but several of my peers in my area hold fast to the NFHS-anointed model. There are several games around here where the only game administrator/school official is the HT manager.

And the HT manager is mandated to act in that roll. He doesn’t get the option to slide into, “sorry Blue, I’ve got a game to coach.”

“Ok, Mike, let me know who can handle that situation, and when exactly they’ll arrive.”

I’m not saying you’re saying that, just offering insight.
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On 9/1/2023 at 10:27 AM, 834k3r said:

That's my take, too--but several of my peers in my area hold fast to the NFHS-anointed model. There are several games around here where the only game administrator/school official is the HT manager.

That isn't the model anymore... 

 

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Not a political discussion, simply a constitutional law discussion because despite over 200 years of existence, many still don't understand it...

The First Amendment (like ALL amendments to The Constitution) only protects our citizens from THE GOVERNMENT restricting their right to free speech.

If a citizen says something in the workplace that their boss or their company leadership/ownership disagree with and they decide to fire that person? That is NOT a violation of that citizen's first amendment rights. That is a private business deciding how they want their company run, what they want to allow/disallow as far as conduct/speech in the workplace, etc. We can disagree with that, of course! Hey, that's bs they fired that guy for that! But, the employee did not have their 1A rights violated because THE GOVERNMENT was not involved in the removal of their livelihood.

Obviously, since we have a public "school district" as the party who is restricting the man from attending games that is, the government so, the case is being heard by the court. I will leave it to the experts to decide if he has a case and how it might turn out for him...

~Dawg

 

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On 9/5/2023 at 11:08 AM, SeeingEyeDog said:

Obviously, since we have a public "school district" as the party who is restricting the man from attending games that is, the government so, the case is being heard by the court. I will leave it to the experts to decide if he has a case and how it might turn out for him...

Schools, however, have broader powers regarding speech and other constitutionally protected privileges (they really aren't rights because the government can and has rescinded all rights when it sees fit).

Cases like New Jersey v TLO (1985) , Tinker v Des Moines (1969), and Morse v Frederick (2007) have helped define a different set of parameters for activities on school grounds where the rights of the individual are often relegated to second place because of the need to provide secure and stable environments  for learning and for the well being of children. The in loco parentis doctrine provides for greater latitude in schools and for school administrators, so this parent may find themselves on the short end of a long line of decisions that limit what most people perceive to be their rights.

 

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Sounds like the coach is a creampuff. The father was not threatening or rude in any way according to what the article reported. Certainly there was no reason to ban him from games. Maybe there is more that wasn't reported.

That said, is it really worth the expense and trouble of a lawsuit? Suck it up, dad. I am sure the daughter is embarrassed beyond belief by her dad's behavior.

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The ump owns everything between the dugouts and fences.  What goes on in the stands he has no authority over.

However, if there are unruly fans, the umpire can suspend the game until peace is restored, the sheriff gets there, etc.

A few years ago, I observed on an adjacent field where the sheriff was called, the game was suspended, people were take to jail, and the game resumed.  The umpire facilitated the call to the police, but the point is, he didn't get into the scrum.  He shouldn't.  (He did get support from both managers.)

First Amendment?  There is also a "fighting words" decision by the Supreme Court that would squash any such nonsense in a lawsuit.  But don't go looking for trouble in the first place.  Let the league and constabulary work out trouble makers.

Mike

Las Vegas

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On 9/7/2023 at 5:21 AM, Mussgrass said:

Sounds like the coach is a creampuff. The father was not threatening or rude in any way according to what the article reported. Certainly there was no reason to ban him from games. Maybe there is more that wasn't reported.

That said, is it really worth the expense and trouble of a lawsuit? Suck it up, dad. I am sure the daughter is embarrassed beyond belief by her dad's behavior.

If the parents signed off on an agreement not to discuss/dispute coaching decisions that's all we need.  Doesn't need to be threatening or rude.  He broke the rule/policy.  I can understand the rule, and wish in hindsight I'd had it.  Because justifying your lineup decisions to each parent, regarding their own kid or other kids, never goes well and always goes down an endless rabbit hole.  Doesn't matter what empirical evidence you have, every parent believes their kid represents your team's best chance to win, and can't fathom that you actually have a logical process in putting together that particular lineup for that particular day.

And, the fact that the parent was a coach in the past he should know better.  When my kid played with another coach, I kept my mouth shut, no matter how inept I thought he was. 

You want to be the coach? Then fine, here's the equipment bag, you take the team.  Otherwise, on this team I'm the coach and you're a parent...sit in the stands and cheer the team on, or get lost.

I've said it before and I'll say it again...the next time I coach it will be a team of 12 orphans.

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2 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

If the parents signed off on an agreement not to discuss/dispute coaching decisions that's all we need.  Doesn't need to be threatening or rude.  He broke the rule/policy.  I can understand the rule, and wish in hindsight I'd had it.  Because justifying your lineup decisions to each parent, regarding their own kid or other kids, never goes well and always goes down an endless rabbit hole.  Doesn't matter what empirical evidence you have, every parent believes their kid represents your team's best chance to win, and can't fathom that you actually have a logical process in putting together that particular lineup for that particular day.

And, the fact that the parent was a coach in the past he should know better.  When my kid played with another coach, I kept my mouth shut, no matter how inept I thought he was. 

You want to be the coach? Then fine, here's the equipment bag, you take the team.  Otherwise, on this team I'm the coach and you're a parent...sit in the stands and cheer the team on, or get lost.

I've said it before and I'll say it again...the next time I coach it will be a team of 12 orphans.

This is precisely why I stopped coaching and switched to umpiring. I enjoyed my teams, my players, putting together practice plans, and overall just continuing the cycle of baseball in my community but, parents were just too much. My league required coaches to hold a meeting to start the season and all parents/guardians were required to attend. Parents quickly figured out this is non-enforceable. I always found it interesting that the parents who would attend team meetings were never the parents I had any problems with.


~Dawg

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40 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

This is precisely why I stopped coaching and switched to umpiring. I enjoyed my teams, my players, putting together practice plans, and overall just continuing the cycle of baseball in my community but, parents were just too much. My league required coaches to hold a meeting to start the season and all parents/guardians were required to attend. Parents quickly figured out this is non-enforceable. I always found it interesting that the parents who would attend team meetings were never the parents I had any problems with.


~Dawg

When I was coaching, I also always had a preseason parent meeting. At least one parent was required to attend. I laid down the expectations not only of the parents and players, but of myself and my coaching staff. It worked out great, and I always many kids returning to play the next season. Set down the expectations early, and make sure they are followed.

I also did a managers, coaches, and volunteers mandatory meeting when I was league president. Again, set the expectations early, and make sure they were followed. I had a great board of directors with the same vision, and our league was always a fun one to play in, as well as being one of the largest in our district. We routinely had more kids wanting to play then we could handle.

Parents got the message early, and we squashed any bad behavior immediately. This is the key! We didn't tolerate any idiots, parents or coaches, not following the behavior standards we put in place. No room for dumb-asses wildcatting around and doing whatever they wanted.

I think the issue that most leagues or organizations have is not squashing the poor behavior immediately. Their message and standards have to have bite to them. It's not pleasant to get rid of managers and coaches, or parents. If organizations are not following up on enforcing the standards they set forth, then they may have not had any meetings whatsoever.

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On 9/8/2023 at 12:19 PM, JonnyCat said:

I think the issue that most leagues or organizations have is not squashing the poor behavior immediately. Their message and standards have to have bite to them. It's not pleasant to get rid of managers and coaches, or parents. If organizations are not following up on enforcing the standards they set forth, then they may have not had any meetings whatsoever.

Yup - some orgs are so afraid people will leave and go to other orgs...my thoughts were always "let them".

I had a code of conduct for the players, another for the coaches, and another for the parents...and I expected them to be followed.

Some people genuinely wanted to make sure the kids weren't victims of their bad parents...I sympathized but felt the we had to think long-term, for all the kids in the org, not just one or two.  You don't nip it in the bud, next thing you know you have parents conspiring, or seeding discourse.  

I inevitably had parents who would challenge me...basically saying "what are you going to do about it?"...my response was simple...I can't bench YOU.  I can't make YOU do laps, or pushups.  Yes, I will use your kid as a pawn here, and your kid will know exactly why they're getting splinters in their ass...YOU can deal with the car ride home.

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