Force play whackers...what, if anything, changes for you?

[SeeingEyeDog]

Force play whackers...you work enough baseball and you see 'em. I use very conventional, 2-man, angle over distance mechanics with the one caveat being I was also trained that if we have a play that we anticipate either a soft toss (harder to hear the ball hit the glove) or the fielder is scrambling to the bag with secure possession trying to beat the runner...if either of those things is happening, we as umpires are to "crash the bag" and really get in tight for an even closer look at everything. I had one of these this weekend and in the drive home I started wondering, "Ok, we crash the bag under those situations...should we also crash the bag on a firmly thrown ball on a play that we anticipate could be a whacker? Is there anything else we could be doing, besides selling it with more emphatic mechanics, on these close plays to improve our accuracy and or credibility?"

Ok, brothers...your turn. What do you have here? Bear in mind, whackers can of course occur at ANY base not just 1B...if there's anything that is base specific, or multiple runner/multiple responsibilities, please include that in your answer.

~Dawg

[JonnyCat]

As the saying goes, close on tag plays, farther away on force plays.

On tag plays, it's better to be closer to see the tag by the fielder, and touch by the runner on the bag( by foot, hand, or whatever.) Getting in close on that wedge position gets you a great look at most tag plays.

For force plays, I like to be farther away. It opens up your field of vision and lets you see all of the play in view, especially on those soft throws that don't make a whole lot of noise. At first base, I always keep my eyes on the bag and listen for the pop of the glove, but I'm still farther away. On other bases, you don't always get that real discernible "pop". But by being farther away, you can see the whole play better, rather than close in and having tunnel vision. By being farther away, it's easier to see the tag of the base by the runner and when the ball arrives, at the same time. Too close and you don't get a real good look at both.

For me, it's just easier to see force plays from farther away. Being too close always had a tendency for the play to "explode" on me. Certainly having a good angle is critical, too. But I think you'll find being a bit farther away on force plays makes it easier to see the entire play.

[834k3r]

6 minutes ago, JonnyCat said:

For me, it's just easier to see force plays from farther away. Being too close always had a tendency for the play to "explode" on me. Certainly having a good angle is critical, too. But I think you'll find being a bit farther away on force plays makes it easier to see the entire play.

I find the same, but I fight my subconscious that says closer is better. There have been some plays that I've been too close and missed a critical piece of the play, eating a healthy portion of crow afterwards. It's something I continue to try to get better at.

If @SeeingEyeDog doesn't mind, I'd also like to see when my brothers and fellow Perfect Craft seekers verbalize an "out" or "safe" call (other than the obvious time play). Do you yell out "Out!" at the same time you break out the hammer/whacker?

[noumpere]

15 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

 besides selling it with more emphatic mechanics,

 

You can also sell it with more routine mechanics.  Out by 10':  ho-hum.  Out by .1 inch?  Still ho-hum.  It's an obvious out to me.

 

You can't do this all the time, but you can learn when to use it.

[Kevin_K]

If experience tells us that a whacker is coming, it would seem that experience would also at least suggest that being too close to a play can have it blow up on you. As @JonnyCat offered, distance provides a greater field of vision allowing for more details to be observed.

Most of us work 2 man crews which means that most of our force plays will be at 1B. When taking a routine play that's going to be a whacker, getting closer would mean that we will probably abandon our normal mechanics of creating an angle to see the play at the bag. How much does changing the mechanic benefit our ability to properly judge the play, including the proper use of eyes to make sure the ball has been secured? 

If selling the call is a concern because distance may seem a problem, I have used the make the call and close the gap mechanic after my call has been made so that it appears I was closer to the play than I actually was.

Good mechanics, good judgment, good communication, and game management are the critical components of being a good umpire. How much might anyone of us benefit by abandoning one of those and significantly impairing another because the play will be closer than normal?

 

[JSam21]

One thing that has really helped me with these types of plays is getting your eyes to the play quicker. As soon as we know the throw is coming, get your eyes to the base. Use the defender's feet to let you know that you need to make an adjustment. It will really slow things down for you. 

Don't anticipate a whacker. That puts more thoughts into your head than needed. Officiate the play just like you would a two hopper to the first baseman. 

[ArchAngel72]

Close play "whackers" 

 

I get angle and best vision that I can ( same goes with any play ) but I also LISTEN..  

Thud  Smack   runner was safe

Smack Thud  runner was out..

 

You know the difference between the foot fall on the base sound and the ball hitting the mitt sound.

Had one in the 10U State champ at 1st this year that confused the hell out of me.  I saw out never heard the ball smack the mitt. paused paused ok I see the ball on the ground  YES  YEEHAAAA  I got my timing right..  SAFE Balls on the ground...

Always recall timing get was the foot on the bag and where is the ball, is it still in the mitt... also what did you think it was I had him out, CRAP NOPE the balls out  few glad I did not bang bang that call..

 

 

 

[The Man in Blue]

4 hours ago, JSam21 said:

One thing that has really helped me with these types of plays is getting your eyes to the play quicker. As soon as we know the throw is coming, get your eyes to the base. Use the defender's feet to let you know that you need to make an adjustment. It will really slow things down for you. 

Don't anticipate a whacker. That puts more thoughts into your head than needed. Officiate the play just like you would a two hopper to the first baseman. 

 

As we get a little older, a little fatter, and a little slower ... OR as we are younger and still learning ... we tend to get overly focused on getting to our spot and then looking for the play. 

Observe upper level umpires and notice their eyes are typically locked in as the are moving.

I brought this up in another post somewhere ... I am glad to see we are finally starting to reject the "get there, get set, see the play, and make the call" mentality that used to be taught.  Plays evolve.  Plays happen quickly.  Move with them, get the call.  Then come set and make the call.

[MadMax]

On 7/27/2023 at 2:54 PM, SeeingEyeDog said:

“should we also crash the bag on a firmly thrown ball on a play that we anticipate could be a whacker(1)? Is there anything else we could be doing, besides selling it with more emphatic mechanics, on these close plays to improve our accuracy and or credibility(2)?"

1. No. 

2. Sure. Be in a settled, stable-yet-prepared position – both angle and distance – so as to give yourself the optimally largest window within which to view all the components of the play. Should the play “fracture” (I won’t say “blow up”), then adjust – lean, read step, drop-step, et. al. – as necessary. 

On 7/28/2023 at 6:05 AM, noumpere said:

It's an obvious out to me…

There was a Lead Instructor at School who wouldn’t demonstrate a whacker… ever… and when pressed, would reply with (I’m paraphrasing) – “There are no close plays. There are plays, and we judge one of two options… there’s Safe, or Out. There isn’t a “barely safe” or “barely out”, or “really close safe!” or “really close out!” option. 

Thus, even when chided by the students to give a whacker demonstration, he still used the same-ole’ out mechanic he typically did. 

[ArchAngel72]

1 hour ago, MadMax said:

Thus, even when chided by the students to give a whacker demonstration, he still used the same-ole’ out mechanic he typically did. 

It's funny one of our top ump's in the state saw a guy "sell" a close play and he told him "great job"

I mentioned at school they told us never to upstage the players by doing something really outrageous.

The 3BU had a close play and he stepped into the throw of a punch out nearly into a split to emphasize the out.  I considered that over the top for an out call.  

The UIC told him it was a great sell on a close play.

 

left me scratching my head.  Do I listen to Bristol guys or do I listen to my State Districts  UIC..

 

Fast fwd 5 years and now I am hearing yep sell it a little if you got it on something close from both places..

 

well Ok now... I know its ok  

[MadMax]

To clarify & reiterate – 

Perform a whacker or banger mechanic to your heart’s content. Knock yourself out (figuratively, not physically). 

… but “crash the bag”?? Just because you “anticipate a close play”?? No. Just… no.

By that rationale, every play has the potential of being a close play, especially when two of the variables – foot speed of the BR, and the thrown ball velocity (and accuracy!!) by the fielder – are so variable. In the pro and collegiate games, they wouldn’t be on the roster or lineup if they aren’t closer to the median in those metrics. But the amateur game has much wider metrics, with “uninjured” or “warm body” or “learning participant” being the only common metric. 

And you’re going to “crash the bag”, narrowing your visual window, so as to make the play more intense?? “Louder” ≠ “more correct”. 

[Thunderheads]

19 hours ago, MadMax said:

There was a Lead Instructor at School who wouldn’t demonstrate a whacker… ever… and when pressed, would reply with (I’m paraphrasing) – “There are no close plays. There are plays, and we judge one of two options… there’s Safe, or Out. There isn’t a “barely safe” or “barely out”, or “really close safe!” or “really close out!” option. 

Thus, even when chided by the students to give a whacker demonstration, he still used the same-ole’ out mechanic he typically did. 

I can't quite wrap my brain around this.   FOR ME ... if there's a close play, and the umpire gives a ho-hum safe/out call, then I'd think it's easy to be perceived as though he wasn't sure of the call.  BUT THAT'S ME.

[JSam21]

On 8/10/2023 at 7:38 PM, MadMax said:

To clarify & reiterate – 

Perform a whacker or banger mechanic to your heart’s content. Knock yourself out (figuratively, not physically). 

… but “crash the bag”?? Just because you “anticipate a close play”?? No. Just… no.

By that rationale, every play has the potential of being a close play, especially when two of the variables – foot speed of the BR, and the thrown ball velocity (and accuracy!!) by the fielder – are so variable. In the pro and collegiate games, they wouldn’t be on the roster or lineup if they aren’t closer to the median in those metrics. But the amateur game has much wider metrics, with “uninjured” or “warm body” or “learning participant” being the only common metric. 

And you’re going to “crash the bag”, narrowing your visual window, so as to make the play more intense?? “Louder” ≠ “more correct”. 

There are only certain situations where I crash the bag at first, all of them tag plays. The throw drawing F3 towards home with a tag on the back likely and the pitcher being in possession of the ball with a foot race to the base with the batter-runner. If there is a throw to still be had, I'm keeping my distance from the base. 

[CanuckJoeWest]

I would be inclined to say yes for two reasons: accuracy and authority

 

I'm a physics nerd. The speed of sound is about 1125 feet/second. If you're 30-35 feet away, you don't hear the ball hit the glove for about .03 seconds, which doesn't sound like a lot but an 80mph throw travels 3 feet in that time, meaning if the ball beats the runner by less than three feet, you may get the call wrong. We can minimize this margin of error by being closer. 

In terms of authority, if the base coach is way closer than you, you may lose some authority and credibility on the call if you bang the runner / BR out. Being closer could be helpful for game management.

 

Just my personal opinion. Whatever works best for you works best for you.