missed home plate

[collectablechris]

let say there is runners on 2nd and third

batter hits a double and the two runners come in to score

but the first runner does not touch home plate

what happens when ball comes home and catcher catches at home plate

look forward to your response

thanks

Chris

[DevildogUmp]

Based on the information provided, the catcher then throws the ball to the pitcher and the next batter is comes up to bat.

 

Matt

[Senor Azul]

If a runner crosses the plate but fails to touch it, the run counts if the defense does not appeal. The runner may not return if a following runner has crossed the plate. 

That means that even if the first runner returns and touches the plate after the second runner has touched the plate, it will not prevent him from being called out on a proper appeal. 

[maven]

On 7/10/2023 at 8:58 PM, collectablechris said:

what happens when ball comes home and catcher catches at home plate

Perhaps your question is: can F2 "accidentally" appeal the missed base, merely by catching the ball while in contact with it?

The answer is no: an appeal must be a deliberate act by the defense, and F2 must communicate not only that he intends to appeal the missed base, but which runner missed it.

And, if this is the third out, the trailing runner's score is nullified when the umpire grants the appeal of the lead runner's missed base at HP.

[collectablechris]

4 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

If a runner crosses the plate but fails to touch it, the run counts if the defense does not appeal. The runner may not return if a following runner has crossed the plate. 

That means that even if the first runner returns and touches the plate after the second runner has touched the plate, it will not prevent him from being called out on a proper appeal. 

so, if defense appeals the missed base - the first runner is out - if this is not the third out - does the second runner still count as a run - or do they have to go back to a base

[collectablechris]

17 minutes ago, maven said:

Perhaps your question is: can F2 "accidentally" appeal the missed base, merely by catching the ball while in contact with it?

The answer is no: an appeal must be a deliberate act by the defense, and F2 must communicate not only that he intends to appeal the missed base, but which runner missed it.

And, if this is the third out, the trailing runner's score is nullified when the umpire grants the appeal of the lead runner's missed base at HP.

ok defense appeals the missed base, noting its the first runner

appeal granted the first runner is out but it is not the third out - does the second runner still count as a run - or do they have to go back to a base

[maven]

13 minutes ago, collectablechris said:

ok defense appeals the missed base, noting its the first runner

appeal granted the first runner is out but it is not the third out - does the second runner still count as a run - or do they have to go back to a base

If the granted appeal is not the third out, the trailing runner's run scores. 

The penalty for a granted appeal is an out only. No additional penalty, as with INT, where we do return runners. The rationale for the INT penalty is that the offense is getting an unfair advantage by the INT; a missed base confers no (further) advantage, so no further penalty beyond the out.

[Senor Azul]

And because a rule tells us that the violation of the preceding runner shall not affect the following runner.

OBR rule 5.09(d)

Unless two are out, the status of a following runner is not affected by a preceding runner's failure to touch or retouch a base. If, upon appeal, the preceding runner is the third out, no runners following him shall score...

[Catch18]

Perhaps your question is: can F2 "accidentally" appeal the missed base, merely by catching the ball while in contact with it?
The answer is no: an appeal must be a deliberate act by the defense, and F2 must communicate not only that he intends to appeal the missed base, but which runner missed it.
And, if this is the third out, the trailing runner's score is nullified when the umpire grants the appeal of the lead runner's missed base at HP.

NFHS 8-2-6 (k):

Third-out Baserunning Infraction. If a baserunning infraction is the third out, runs scored by the following runner(s) would not count. With two outs, if the base missed was the first to which the batter or runner was forced to advance, no runs would score. When a runner is legally returning after a fly ball has been caught, he can be put out by being tagged with the ball by a defensive player or merely by the defensive player with the ball touching the base occupied by the runner at the time of the pitch.

I love learning new things. Nicely done maven.

So we’re talking just missed bases here as the “base running infraction,” not based left too soon (not properly tagged up on)?


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[noumpere]

11 minutes ago, Catch18 said:

So we’re talking just missed bases here as the “base running infraction,” not based left too soon (not properly tagged up on)?
 

Both.  R2, R3, no outs.  B3 flies out (out #1).  Both R3 and R2 cross the plate, but R3 is later out on a successful appeal for leaving early (out #2).  R2's run still counts.

[beerguy55]

24 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Both.  R2, R3, no outs.  B3 flies out (out #1).  Both R3 and R2 cross the plate, but R3 is later out on a successful appeal for leaving early (out #2).  R2's run still counts.

So, R2 and R3 score...R3 realizing he left third early, retouches home and goes back to third...and let's say he gets back safely, and the defense, not realizing he's still liable to be put out on appeal, simply doesn't complete the appeal because he got back to the base.

As a matter of administration, does the umpire simply tell R3 that he's not allowed to do that because R2 scored and send him back to the dugout?   And then we see if defense finally figures out that they can appeal?

I can see the conversation:

PU: Since R2 scored, R3 can not return to third base.

OC (whispers) - he left early...he's not allowed to correct that?

PU: no

OC: well, don't tell HIM that.

HIM (DC): I'm confused, he voluntarily ran back to third, because he left early, why does he get to keep the run?

PU: well, once the following runner scores, the preceding runner can't return to any bases

HIM:  It's weird that he gets to score the run if he left early

• FED or softball PU: that sounds like a dead ball verbal appeal to me...runner's out.  
• OBR PU: Yup

HIM: there's something here I should be remembering...

[Jimurray]

45 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

As a matter of administration, does the umpire simply tell R3 that he's not allowed to do that because R2 scored and send him back to the dugout?   And then we see if defense finally figures out that they can appeal?

 

The umpire would say nothing normally. Various scenarios that might occur could require a safe signal, an out signal, that run scores or that run does not score. 

[beerguy55]

59 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

The umpire would say nothing normally. Various scenarios that might occur could require a safe signal, an out signal, that run scores or that run does not score. 

 

He can't end the play on third.

You're not going to allow F1 to pitch to the next batter with R3 still on third base, are you?

At best, you would have to call R2 for passing R3.

If he never left early (but only believed he did), his run scores...he's simply told to return to the dugout.

If the following runner scores, his action is locked in...he can't correct a baserunning error.   He can't be allowed to stay on third.   The run counts unless the defense figures out they can appeal.

You can't have a scorekeeping scenario where a following runner has scored, and the preceding runner is still on base.  Again, that would require a following runner to pass another.

 

[Jimurray]

52 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

 

He can't end the play on third.

You're not going to allow F1 to pitch to the next batter with R3 still on third base, are you?

At best, you would have to call R2 for passing R3.

If he never left early (but only believed he did), his run scores...he's simply told to return to the dugout.

If the following runner scores, his action is locked in...he can't correct a baserunning error.   He can't be allowed to stay on third.   The run counts unless the defense figures out they can appeal.

You can't have a scorekeeping scenario where a following runner has scored, and the preceding runner is still on base.  Again, that would require a following runner to pass another.

 

In that scenario I would point to R3 and say his run scored. If he then still stayed on 3B I would tell him to go to the dugout.

[noumpere]

1 hour ago, beerguy55 said:

If he never left early (but only believed he did), his run scores...he's simply told to return to

 

Until the defense appeals, he hasn't left early -- so the umpire would do exactly the same thing.

[Mad Mike]

Kind of late to the party, but to answer @collectablechris question, take a look at this from closecallsports.com:

 

https://www.closecallsports.com/2023/04/odor-misses-home-kim-scores-odor-out-on.html