Mixture of NFHS and OBR balk rules caused confusion

[Detroit Pat]

18U tourney last weekend using NFHS rules with two balk exceptions "No third to first move" and "Balks are live and will be a delayed dead ball" (so, sort of MLB balk rules but not explicitly saying MLB balk rules in effect)

Runners at first and third, no outs, RHP
F1 kicks up and steps to 3B and begins to throw (pivot foot is now disengaged)
R1 takes off to 2B on the kick
F1 stops his throw to 3B and turns and throws to 2B ahead of R1 who is thrown out

In MLB this is a balk all day
In NFHS my interpretation is that this would be legal as a feint to 3B is allowed after the pivot foot is disengaged and subsequently throwing ahead of an advancing runner at 2B would be legal (I could certainly be wrong here)

What would you have called?

[noumpere]

15 minutes ago, Detroit Pat said:

18U tourney last weekend using NFHS rules with two balk exceptions "No third to first move" and "Balks are live and will be a delayed dead ball" (so, sort of MLB balk rules but not explicitly saying MLB balk rules in effect)

Runners at first and third, no outs, RHP
F1 kicks up and steps to 3B and begins to throw (pivot foot is now disengaged)
R1 takes off to 2B on the kick
F1 stops his throw to 3B and turns and throws to 2B ahead of R1 who is thrown out

In MLB this is a balk all day
In NFHS my interpretation is that this would be legal as a feint to 3B is allowed after the pivot foot is disengaged and subsequently throwing ahead of an advancing runner at 2B would be legal (I could certainly be wrong here)

What would you have called?

You are correct that it's a balk under OBR and legal under FED -- but your FED reasoning is a bit off; this was a move from the rubber not a feint after disengaging.  In addition, under all codes, it's allowed to throw ahead of a runner who is advancing (if it's the first move under OBR) whether or not the pitcher has disengaged.  So, in FD F1 could step toward third, keep the pivot foot on the rubber and then step and throw to second as a play on an advancing R1.

 

My guess is that the tournament wanted this to be a balk.

[ErichKeane]

In OBR it is a balk for the feint to 3rd.  The "3rd to 1st is a balk!" thing is because the "fake to 3rd" is illegal, not the action to 1st (another of my many pet peeves here...). 

I am not sure what I would have called here... I'd have to be more familiar with the rules of the tourney here to decide whether they really MEAN "OBR balks, + NFHS everything else", or if there is some non-umpire TD making the rules silly/not clear.  In the former case, Balk.  In the latter, "It wasn't a 3rd to 1st move, so fine, if you dislike it, talk to your melon-head TD".

As far as NFHS, noumpere is correct here.

[SH0102]

1 hour ago, Detroit Pat said:

18U tourney last weekend using NFHS rules with two balk exceptions "No third to first move" and "Balks are live and will be a delayed dead ball" (so, sort of MLB balk rules but not explicitly saying MLB balk rules in effect)

Runners at first and third, no outs, RHP
F1 kicks up and steps to 3B and begins to throw (pivot foot is now disengaged)
R1 takes off to 2B on the kick
F1 stops his throw to 3B and turns and throws to 2B ahead of R1 who is thrown out

In MLB this is a balk all day
In NFHS my interpretation is that this would be legal as a feint to 3B is allowed after the pivot foot is disengaged and subsequently throwing ahead of an advancing runner at 2B would be legal (I could certainly be wrong here)

What would you have called?

My question to you would be, what is the difference between stepping to third and then turning and throwing to first (illegal in this event) versus stepping to third and then turning to throw to second?

everything is the same in regards to initial movements and what happened with the pivot foot.

If one is illegal, so is the other 

[Detroit Pat]

Thanks y'all!

Here's the rule copy/paste:

A.   PITCHING - NFHS Pitching rules are in effect with these SPECIFIC Modifications.

·         3rd to 1st move is NOT LEGAL.

·         Balks will remain LIVE if a pitch is delivered.

[ErichKeane]

1 minute ago, Detroit Pat said:

Thanks y'all!

Here's the rule copy/paste:

A.   PITCHING - NFHS Pitching rules are in effect with these SPECIFIC Modifications.

·         3rd to 1st move is NOT LEGAL.

·         Balks will remain LIVE if a pitch is delivered.

Ah, so a melon-head TD.  SHOULD be a balk by any sane rule set, but thats not what we have here.  So, not a balk

[The Man in Blue]

Agree with @ErichKeane ... since the TD didn't say "a feint to 3rd is illegal" and specifically said "3rd to 1st" ... a feint to 3rd and move to second is technically legal.

Worked a tournament this weekend with that same modification.  Luckily, didn't have that issue.  Had a kid throw to the third baseman who was not holding a runner and a kid feint on a jump turn ... but didn't have that.

[BrainFreeze]

I worked a tournament last year with same modification.  

In the pre-game meeting my instructions were that a feint to 3d was illegal due to the modifications.  

I would have had a balk here for the feint to 3d.

Also having a hard time visualizing how the RHP would kick and step towards 3d and then be disengaged?  Maybe I am reading it too literally...

[ErichKeane]

4 minutes ago, BrainFreeze said:

I worked a tournament last year with same modification.  

In the pre-game meeting my instructions were that a feint to 3d was illegal due to the modifications.  

I would have had a balk here for the feint to 3d.

Also having a hard time visualizing how the RHP would kick and step towards 3d and then be disengaged?  Maybe I am reading it too literally...

As he's stepping/coming off the mound, pivot foot comes off the rubber with the body?  So the turn to 2nd is 'off' the rubber.  I've definitely seen that happen.

[Thunderheads]

If I'm doing a tournament with 'OBR balk rules' ... which of course means the 3rd to First move is illegal, as it's been said, it's the feint to 3rd that's illegal.    So, the OP would be a balk due to the feint to 3rd, however, it would be legal in a full FED rule game.

OR --- did I miss something?  

[ErichKeane]

22 hours ago, Detroit Pat said:

Thanks y'all!

Here's the rule copy/paste:

A.   PITCHING - NFHS Pitching rules are in effect with these SPECIFIC Modifications.

·         3rd to 1st move is NOT LEGAL.

·         Balks will remain LIVE if a pitch is delivered.

 

12 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

If I'm doing a tournament with 'OBR balk rules' ... which of course means the 3rd to First move is illegal, as it's been said, it's the feint to 3rd that's illegal.    So, the OP would be a balk due to the feint to 3rd, however, it would be legal in a full FED rule game.

OR --- did I miss something?  

 

I quoted the rules they were given by OP later on.  It does NOT say it is OBR rules, it just says live-ball and 3rd to 1st not legal.  They perhaps WANT something more akin to OBR rules, but thats not what they wrote.

Given the above, I can't imagine the arguments I'd get for calling the feint to 3rd as a balk, mixed with a TD that obviously doesn't know enough about how to back me up on it, so thats just not a bugger I'd want to pick.

[noumpere]

You can always ask the TD in advance to clarify and spread the word.

[Jimurray]

4 minutes ago, noumpere said:

You can always ask the TD in advance to clarify and spread the word.

That would require quite a long discussion with the TD and might end up with the live ball balk being “ coach choice” 😀

[Thunderheads]

1 hour ago, ErichKeane said:

 

 

I quoted the rules they were given by OP later on.  It does NOT say it is OBR rules, it just says live-ball and 3rd to 1st not legal.  They perhaps WANT something more akin to OBR rules, but thats not what they wrote.

Given the above, I can't imagine the arguments I'd get for calling the feint to 3rd as a balk, mixed with a TD that obviously doesn't know enough about how to back me up on it, so thats just not a bugger I'd want to pick.

BUT WHY is 3rd to 1st not legal in the first place.  Because it starts with a feint to 3rd.   This is an easy assumption.  But, agree, that TD needs to clarify just in case.  I can't imagine them allowing a feint to 3rd, but not 3rd to 1st.

[ErichKeane]

4 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

BUT WHY is 3rd to 1st not legal in the first place.  Because it starts with a feint to 3rd.   This is an easy assumption.  But, agree, that TD needs to clarify just in case.  I can't imagine them allowing a feint to 3rd, but not 3rd to 1st.

That is why it is illegal in OBR.  In OPs rule set, its not, it is illegal because it is a 3rd to 1st move. 

[Thunderheads]

1 minute ago, ErichKeane said:

That is why it is illegal in OBR.  In OPs rule set, its not, it is illegal because it is a 3rd to 1st move. 

But it's not ...it's a feint to 3rd, then a throw to 2nd in advance of a runner.  Right?

[ErichKeane]

4 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

But it's not ...it's a feint to 3rd, then a throw to 2nd in advance of a runner.  Right?

Agreed, the OPs example is NOT illegal by those rules, is my point. The 3rd to 1st is illegal because it is illegal (yes, a tautology, but its what their rules say!).  I guess what I'm saying is, "We shouldn't be reading tea leaves to try to bail out bad rules writers, we need to enforce their rules, and let them deal with the fallout, not us".

[Thunderheads]

2 minutes ago, ErichKeane said:

Agreed, the OPs example is NOT illegal by those rules, is my point. The 3rd to 1st is illegal because it is illegal (yes, a tautology, but its what their rules say!).  I guess what I'm saying is, "We shouldn't be reading tea leaves to try to bail out bad rules writers, we need to enforce their rules, and let them deal with the fallout, not us".

And that's my point.  Clarification is needed, however - again - 

If 3rd to 1st is illegal as the OP says, then a feint to 3rd is illegal because 3rd to 1st is just that, ....  a feint to 3rd.  It's common sense.

In the OP, that move is a balk (that's how I'd call it)

[RBIbaseball]

2 minutes ago, ErichKeane said:

Agreed, the OPs example is NOT illegal by those rules, is my point. The 3rd to 1st is illegal because it is illegal (yes, a tautology, but its what their rules say!).  I guess what I'm saying is, "We shouldn't be reading tea leaves to try to bail out bad rules writers, we need to enforce their rules, and let them deal with the fallout, not u

I see the logic, and I'm not claiming who's right or wrong .

 

But if I see a ruleset say "no 3rd to 1st move" , I would enforce that all day every day as "feints to 3B are illegal".

More than likely I would state it like that in the plate meeting too, since it's very often asked by the coaches there anyway.

[Thunderheads]

3 minutes ago, RBIbaseball said:

I see the logic, and I'm not claiming who's right or wrong .

 

But if I see a ruleset say "no 3rd to 1st move" , I would enforce that all day every day as "feints to 3B are illegal".

More than likely I would state it like that in the plate meeting too, since it's very often asked by the coaches there anyway.

AGREE.   Again, that's what the 3rd to 1st move is, ... it's a feint to 3rd.

[ErichKeane]

1 minute ago, RBIbaseball said:

I see the logic, and I'm not claiming who's right or wrong .

 

But if I see a ruleset say "no 3rd to 1st move" , I would enforce that all day every day as "feints to 3B are illegal".

More than likely I would state it like that in the plate meeting too, since it's very often asked by the coaches there anyway.

The outcome of that is: You have a TD who is writing the above rule set.  When a coach complains about it, the TD is not going to back you up here, so you're going to look like a fool enforcing a made-up rule in a MSU tournament.   So I'd either enforce the rule exactly-as-written (3rd to 1st is illegal because 3rd to 1st is illegal, not the feint), or track the TD down in advance and MAKE him clarify the rules.

[Jimurray]

4 minutes ago, ErichKeane said:

The outcome of that is: You have a TD who is writing the above rule set.  When a coach complains about it, the TD is not going to back you up here, so you're going to look like a fool enforcing a made-up rule in a MSU tournament.   So I'd either enforce the rule exactly-as-written (3rd to 1st is illegal because 3rd to 1st is illegal, not the feint), or track the TD down in advance and MAKE him clarify the rules.

While you are at it ask him if a 3rd to 1st move is legal if F1 disengages to do it. Sometimes you might have to do a rules clinic with local fools to confirm the ramifications of their modifications. 

[Thunderheads]

7 minutes ago, ErichKeane said:

The outcome of that is: You have a TD who is writing the above rule set.  When a coach complains about it, the TD is not going to back you up here, so you're going to look like a fool enforcing a made-up rule in a MSU tournament.   So I'd either enforce the rule exactly-as-written (3rd to 1st is illegal because 3rd to 1st is illegal, not the feint), or track the TD down in advance and MAKE him clarify the rules.

Erich, Erich, Erich .... you're missing the point here, and somehow not understanding what is being said.  The 3rd to 1st move IS A FEINT TO 3rd.  Therefore, BOTH 3rd to 1st AND feints to 3rd are illegal.   Does it need clarification? Yes, of course.  But you have common sense/rule support for an illegal feint to 3rd.

[ErichKeane]

1 minute ago, Jimurray said:

While you are at it ask him if a 3rd to 1st move is legal if F1 disengages to do it. Sometimes you might have to do a rules clinic with local fools to confirm the ramifications of their modifications. 

Oh absolutely.  I'm being a bit obstinate here because I have a seething hatred for folks who make up rules without discussing it with rules experts.  Additionally, it is NOT our responsibility to figure out what the melon-head writing the rules SHOULD have said, we have to enforce the rules as written. 

 

1 minute ago, Thunderheads said:

Erich, Erich, Erich .... you're missing the point here, and somehow not understanding what is being said.  The 3rd to 1st move IS A FEINT TO 3rd.  Therefore, BOTH 3rd to 1st AND feints to 3rd are illegal.   Does it need clarification? Yes, of course.  But you have common sense/rule support for an illegal feint to 3rd.

No,I absolutely get what you're saying here.  BUT the 3rd-to-1st is illegal because it is a feint to 3rd is illegal in OBR.  This tourney in OP is NOT OBR.  It is Fed.  It has 2 rules that are perhaps OBR inspired, but aren't from OBR.  If they said, 'This is NFHS + OBR balk rules', I'd agree with you, but they are doing custom modifications.  If they meant "Feint to 3rd is illegal", that is what they need to say, not what they did.

 

[BrainFreeze]

10 minutes ago, ErichKeane said:

Oh absolutely.  I'm being a bit obstinate here because I have a seething hatred for folks who make up rules without discussing it with rules experts.  Additionally, it is NOT our responsibility to figure out what the melon-head writing the rules SHOULD have said, we have to enforce the rules as written. 

It is however your responsibility to get the call right, and your obstinance does you no good when you have a feint to 3d in a game situation and the offensive HC loses his mind because you tell him that you *know* it's a balk but you're not calling it because the TD wrote a crappy rule. 

Earlier in the thread you said you didn't want to pick a particular booger -- so *this* is the booger you'd rather pick?

[BrainFreeze]

33 minutes ago, ErichKeane said:

The outcome of that is: You have a TD who is writing the above rule set.  When a coach complains about it, the TD is not going to back you up here, so you're going to look like a fool enforcing a made-up rule in a MSU tournament.   So I'd either enforce the rule exactly-as-written (3rd to 1st is illegal because 3rd to 1st is illegal, not the feint), or track the TD down in advance and MAKE him clarify the rules.

I see this a lot in these threads and I honestly don't get it. 

Do any of you work games where a coach goes to get the TD to appeal a ruling you've made?  Unless there's some tournament rule that says "teams can go get the TD if they don't like the umpire's ruling", when the TD comes up to my field I'm telling him ( or her ) to

• piss off; and
• grab their gear because they're the new umpire; and
• piss off