Video of HS Championship

[TNCoach]

I'm sure many of you have seen the HS Championship game where the uncaught third strike and no tag was made.  The players continued running the bases while the defense celebrated their "win." 

 

What is the rule on the catcher putting the ball in his pocket?

[The Man in Blue]

Discussion here: 

 

I didn't even catch that and had to go back to look.

While I am sure some may say it is a "lodged ball," I would argue otherwise.  The ball did not become lodged, the catcher intentionally placed it there.  I am not going to reward the defense and punish the offense.  If you try to claim this is a dead ball and we should award bases, I will teach my outfielders to just put the ball in their pocket on any extra base hit.

 

 

[Catch18]

A lodged ball isn’t rewarding the defense. What do you mean? It’d be 2 bases. And if they did it intentionally, I’d play it like intentional catch/carry.

[TNCoach]

I've not coached nor umpired in a few years now.  Been enjoying being a dad as my kids are in high school.  What rule is applicable here? I don't have a copy of the rule book anymore.  

[The Man in Blue]

10 hours ago, Catch18 said:

A lodged ball isn’t rewarding the defense. What do you mean? It’d be 2 bases. And if they did it intentionally, I’d play it like intentional catch/carry.

Calling it a lodged ball would have killed it and prevented at least one runner, maybe both the runners from scoring (one base beyond last legally touched).  Sounds like rewarding the defense and punishing the offense for an intentional action.

Why would you call it catch/carry?  The ball never left play.  If the catcher walked off the field during play, I could see the argument.

[Catch18]

Calling it a lodged ball would have killed it and prevented at least one runner, maybe both the runners from scoring (one base beyond last legally touched).  Sounds like rewarding the defense and punishing the offense for an intentional action.
Why would you call it catch/carry?  The ball never left play.  If the catcher walked off the field during play, I could see the argument.

I didn’t say I would call it catch and carry. I was assimilating the two scenarios. I’m saying award 2 bases - why would you not? Remember those plays where the mlb outfielder thinks he caught out #3, tosses it into the stands, then realizes it’s only 2. Two base award for putting the ball out of play. My apologies if I didn’t explain what I meant better.

[noumpere]

Saw it on the morning news here.  While PU could have given a more emphatic safe call, the defense has no one to blame but themselves.

[Richvee]

I can’t get behind the lodged ball argument. 
First off…what’s  the status of the ball? By definition, It’s no longer a pitch, and it’s not a thrown or batted ball. So if we were to call it lodged, is it a lodged pitch( one base) or throw( 2 bases). 
Additionally, if we are to go with lodged ball, then what’s to stop a catcher from chasing down a passed ball and putting it in his pocket to prevent runners from  advancing another base?  
 

No. ….F2 knew he dropped it and should have finished the play. F4 knew it. F8 knew it. Tough loss. Tough lesson learned. 

[JSam21]

8 hours ago, Richvee said:

I can’t get behind the lodged ball argument. 
First off…what’s  the status of the ball? By definition, It’s no longer a pitch, and it’s not a thrown or batted ball. So if we were to call it lodged, is it a lodged pitch( one base) or throw( 2 bases). 
Additionally, if we are to go with lodged ball, then what’s to stop a catcher from chasing down a passed ball and putting it in his pocket to prevent runners from  advancing another base?  
 

No. ….F2 knew he dropped it and should have finished the play. F4 knew it. F8 knew it. Tough loss. Tough lesson learned. 

This would be a thrown ball... It is no longer a pitch since it was secured. It wasn't batted... That only leaves one status. 

I can fully get behind this being a lodged ball. Intentional act, time of infraction award, 2 bases. 

[Senor Azul]

I agree that the catcher putting the live ball in his pocket is not a lodged ball or a batted ball. It's a thrown ball by the definition provided in FED rule 2-37

A throw is the act of voluntarily losing possession through having the ball leave the hand for a purpose other than a pitch. It may result in the ball being bounced, handed, rolled, tossed or thrown.

[Jimurray]

9 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

I agree that the catcher putting the live ball in his pocket is not a lodged ball or a batted ball. It's a thrown ball by the definition provided in FED rule 2-37

A throw is the act of voluntarily losing possession through having the ball leave the hand for a purpose other than a pitch. It may result in the ball being bounced, handed, rolled, tossed or thrown.

I wouldn’t call this a lodged ball but didn’t an MLB ump call it that?

[Senor Azul]

The act of putting a live ball in a fielder's uniform is almost always associated with a hidden ball trick. The FED does not have a rule or case play that covers this situation. But OBR actually has a rule that was added to the book in the last 5-6 years and it treats the situation as an immediate dead ball for fielders who intentionally place a live ball in their uniform (5.06c7 Comment).

I

[ErichKeane]

1 hour ago, Senor Azul said:

The act of putting a live ball in a fielder's uniform is almost always associated with a hidden ball trick. The FED does not have a rule or case play that covers this situation. But OBR actually has a rule that was added to the book in the last 5-6 years and it treats the situation as an immediate dead ball for fielders who intentionally place a live ball in their uniform (5.06c7 Comment).

I

That is an interesting rule!  The comment says:

 

Quote

If a ball is intentionally placed inside a player’s uniform (e.g., a pants pocket) for the purpose of deceiving a base runner, the umpire shall call “Time.” The umpire will place all runners at least one base (or more if warranted, in the umpire’s judgment, in order to nullify the action of the ball being put out of play), from the base they originally occupied.

 

I think we'd have a difficult time justifying this as 'for the purpose of deceiving the runner'.  That said, if we DID judge that, the award would be odd, I'm not sure what the 'nullification' would be here.  At least 1 base would be BR to 1st, but if the crew were to have killed it right then, I don't see how the crew would judge anything here.

[The Man in Blue]

The catcher never lost possession or control of the ball, so I’m not buying the idea of deeming it a thrown ball.

He also didn’t do it to deceive the runner, so I’m not going there either.

Unless you are giving a 3-base award, there is no possible way to justify calling it a dead ball and punishing the offense/rewarding the defense.  At any point the catcher could have made a play — the defense was ever deprived of any opportunity.

[beerguy55]

1 hour ago, The Man in Blue said:

The catcher never lost possession or control of the ball, so I’m not buying the idea of deeming it a thrown ball.

He also didn’t do it to deceive the runner, so I’m not going there either.

Unless you are giving a 3-base award, there is no possible way to justify calling it a dead ball and punishing the offense/rewarding the defense.  At any point the catcher could have made a play — the defense was ever deprived of any opportunity.

BUT...one thing to consider...if you kill the play and rule on it IMMEDIATELY (in the moment, without knowing anything else about what's going to happen) you are rewarding the offense and punishing the defense.

Keeping in mind that R1 was still standing very close to first base, B/R is on his way to first, and R2 is around third base.

If you kill the play immediately, you give R2 home and then the others end up at second and third, tie game, still two outs.

Because the opposite side of this play is while the ball is hidden in F2's pocket there is the opportunity for him to tag out one of the runners who are advancing, likely assuming the ball is still sitting in his glove on the ground (which is what I thought the first 15 times I watched the video).

At that moment in the video where F2 puts it in his pocket, if you don't kill it, he could realize his mistake and still tag out R2 before home plate, or toss to second for a force on R1.

On 5/28/2023 at 10:06 PM, The Man in Blue said:

If you try to claim this is a dead ball and we should award bases, I will teach my outfielders to just put the ball in their pocket on any extra base hit

The penalty is going to be measured from the time he put it in his pocket...assuming you're awarding at least two bases I see no incentive for the defense to do this on purpose.

[The Man in Blue]

Maybe I am seeing this differently …

R1, ball hit down the right field line into no man’s land in the corner.  Knowing he won’t make the play at the plate and to prevent the runner from scoring, the outfielder sticks the ball in his back pocket.  Not buying into this.

@beerguy55 you should recognize USA Softball has a provision to prevent the defense from circumventing the rules like that.  

Leave it live, let it play.  IF @beerguy55’s situation unfolds it is a different play than what we have.  The catcher hiding the ball is the situation @Senor Azul cited.  We don’t have that though.  

Since Fed doesn’t have a rule or case play, there is no reason to kill it.  Do not apply OBR.  Do not cross up your codes.

[BrainFreeze]

I watched the video.  

1. PU was very un-emphatic with his safe call.  Safe meaning no catch on the strike?  Safe meaning no tag by F2?  Very hard to tell.  F2 gave himself away a little bit by turning to throw to 1B -- he knew that he didn't tag BR. 
2. Hard to tell what the other umpires were doing from the video.

 

Lots of discussion about whether or not there are base-running awards here for F2 sticking the ball in his pocket.  This is definitely a no-call situation.  Are you really going to be the umpire who says, "This isn't quite crazy enough, let me find the shi--iest end of the shi--iest stick I can find and grab it right now."

The only learning to get from this situation is (IMO), make sure you're clear when you are PU and you have an U3K.  PU could have been clearer, and he contributed to this by his lack of clarity. 

[beerguy55]

1 hour ago, The Man in Blue said:

R1, ball hit down the right field line into no man’s land in the corner.  Knowing he won’t make the play at the plate and to prevent the runner from scoring, the outfielder sticks the ball in his back pocket.  Not buying into this.

This only makes sense if R1 hasn't reached second base yet and you only award two bases.  If R1 is past second, he gets home anyway.   I just don't see a scenario where an outfielder in the corner, with possession of the ball, determines that he can't get the ball into the infield in time to prevent R1 from scoring (where R1 for some reason still hasn't reached second base)...barring F7/9 breaking an arm or a leg as he gets the ball.

[JSam21]

20 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

The catcher never lost possession or control of the ball, so I’m not buying the idea of deeming it a thrown ball.

He also didn’t do it to deceive the runner, so I’m not going there either.

Unless you are giving a 3-base award, there is no possible way to justify calling it a dead ball and punishing the offense/rewarding the defense.  At any point the catcher could have made a play — the defense was ever deprived of any opportunity.

A ball in play has 3 status... Pitched, Thrown, or Batted. It is no longer a pitched ball since the catcher secured it. It wasn't batted... So that can only leave one option. 

 

[Thunderheads]

2 hours ago, JSam21 said:

A ball in play has 3 status... Pitched, Thrown, or Batted. It is no longer a pitched ball since the catcher secured it. It wasn't batted... So that can only leave one option. 

 

Not a pitched ball because the catcher secured it ....not batted ..... but how is it thrown then?   there's no FED support for F2 putting this ball in his pocket.  And it does not fit the 'lodged ball' scenario.   This is truly a quite unique situation that very well could conjure up new, additional verbiage in one of the NFHS rules 

[BLWizzRanger]

2 hours ago, JSam21 said:

A ball in play has 3 status... Pitched, Thrown, or Batted. It is no longer a pitched ball since the catcher secured it. It wasn't batted... So that can only leave one option. 

 

Isn't 'possessed' a status?  The catcher possessed the ball and placed it in his back pocket, in his free hand, in his glove.  A tag attempt starts with a possessed ball....  maybe caught is the better word here, but, a ball that stops rolling at the backstop isn't caught but picked up ultimately leading to a possessed ball.

[wolfe_man]

17 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

Not a pitched ball because the catcher secured it ....not batted ..... but how is it thrown then?   there's no FED support for F2 putting this ball in his pocket.  And it does not fit the 'lodged ball' scenario.   This is truly a quite unique situation that very well could conjure up new, additional verbiage in one of the NFHS rules 

POE for 2024?  "Do not permit F2 to put a ball into his pocket"... Penalty shall be state championship awarded to opposing team.

In all seriousness, I can see getting the lodged ball there as a way out of a bad situation.  If you only award two bases after stopping play, they don't blow the championship and you probably aren't going viral. 

But, I can also see letting it play out as F2 knew he didn't catch the uncaught 3K - and knew he didn't tag the runner too, so it's on him and lack of coaching.  What good F2 doesn't throw the ball to 1B there and eliminate any doubt?  The optics are that he wanted that ball for a keepsake more than making sure of the last out.  I would bet that he would do differently today if given a second opportunity to do so and knowing what he knows now.

This is where we all can learn and be better.  Personally, the big K3 mechanic was too much in this situation and only caused confusion.  As others have said, he then made a feeble safe (no tag) call and it doesn't appear that he verbalized it on the video (but I can't hear it, so it's possible that he did vocalize). 

In this situation, especially on that stage, we simply can not leave room for misinterpretation.   I'd probably say "no catch" when F2 didn't catch the pitched ball, then "no tag" and a big safe sign on the missed tag attempt - but then I had an issue bite me earlier this year because I wasn't loud enough, so maybe I am coming from a different angle than others.  This is part of that preventive umpiring that we all hear about, we can avoid some issues by being loud & clear in our calls and signals.

Ultimately, I cannot fault the umpires here.  They did their jobs, they made the calls.  Could it have been better officiated? Possibly, but they made the calls - just no one was looking or listening when it mattered.

[834k3r]

13 minutes ago, wolfe_man said:

This is where we all can learn and be better.  Personally, the big K3 mechanic was too much in this situation and only caused confusion.  As others have said, he then made a feeble safe (no tag) call and it doesn't appear that he verbalized it on the video (but I can't hear it, so it's possible that he did vocalize).

It's a huge moment, for sure--but I think this situation is a timing issue rather than a mechanics issue. Putting myself in that position (2 outs, bottom of the 7th inning in a district championship game) if the BR takes strike three, I'm breaking out a big chainsaw. I think that's where the PU was in this instance. I think his timing is what failed him. Had he slowed down thismuch I think he would've seen the U3K and changed his mechanic accordingly.

I'm no expert in timing (I ripped a chainsaw on a U3K in majors LL last night), but that's my takeaway from this video.

[JSam21]

52 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

Not a pitched ball because the catcher secured it ....not batted ..... but how is it thrown then?   there's no FED support for F2 putting this ball in his pocket.  And it does not fit the 'lodged ball' scenario.   This is truly a quite unique situation that very well could conjure up new, additional verbiage in one of the NFHS rules 

It is "thrown" because he no longer has firm and secure possession of the ball in either his hand or glove. 

[JSam21]

54 minutes ago, BLWizzRanger said:

Isn't 'possessed' a status?  The catcher possessed the ball and placed it in his back pocket, in his free hand, in his glove.  A tag attempt starts with a possessed ball....  maybe caught is the better word here, but, a ball that stops rolling at the backstop isn't caught but picked up ultimately leading to a possessed ball.

I think you're delving way too deep into semantics. The word "possessed" comes up exactly zero times in the NFHS rule book. It comes up zero times in OBR. It comes up zero times in the NCAA book. 

A ball is either pitched, thrown, or batted. Something that was taught to me by my mentor... "Break down complex situations into their individual parts and they become easy." As difficult as it maybe to wrap our heads around this, placing the ball in their pocket is a thrown ball.