NFHS Helmet Rule

[Guest Brad]

Our player hit a home run over the fence. When the player rounded third he helmet tapped the third base coach. An assistant screams he is out, took his helmet off. Umpires get together and call him out. Isn’t it supposed to only be a warning in NFHS?

[noumpere]

I don't think it's an out in any case -- it's a warning and an ejection.  AND it only applies when the ball is live and in live-ball territory (all assuming the rule hasn't recently changed)

 

[Thunderheads]

58 minutes ago, Guest Brad said:

Our player hit a home run over the fence. When the player rounded third he helmet tapped the third base coach. An assistant screams he is out, took his helmet off. Umpires get together and call him out. Isn’t it supposed to only be a warning in NFHS?

THIS IS THE REASON UMPIRES ARE HATED, .... RIGHT HERE!  MISAPPLICATION OF RULES!  UN REAL!!!!!!!!

Home run ... NOT a live ball ....NOT AN OUT ....  see @noumpere's photo/insert.

[SH0102]

We’ve all been there, young, new, learning, I’ve misapplied rules in youth ball and such and learned from them.

I don’t begrudge umpires for making a mistake, but I wish I could tell them, “if you’re unsure of a rule, always side with the less controversial ruling, then make sure you look it up as soon as you get home”.

These guys made up a rule, or were “convinced” by the other coach it was an out.  Again, they don’t know the rule, fine, it happens, but just tell the coach, “coach, he shouldn’t have done it but it had no impact on the play, you’re not getting a cheap out here”.  If they were wrong, they’re wrong, but that’s a lot less controversial than taking away a HR and calling him out.

And btw, just bc it’s NFHS rules doesn’t mean it was hs game. Could have been a 11u game where umpires “should” make mistakes bc that’s where they’re learning too

[Thunderheads]

17 minutes ago, SH0102 said:

We’ve all been there, young, new, learning, I’ve misapplied rules in youth ball and such and learned from them.

I don’t begrudge umpires for making a mistake, but I wish I could tell them, “if you’re unsure of a rule, always side with the less controversial ruling, then make sure you look it up as soon as you get home”.

These guys made up a rule, or were “convinced” by the other coach it was an out.  Again, they don’t know the rule, fine, it happens, but just tell the coach, “coach, he shouldn’t have done it but it had no impact on the play, you’re not getting a cheap out here”.  If they were wrong, they’re wrong, but that’s a lot less controversial than taking away a HR and calling him out.

And btw, just bc it’s NFHS rules doesn’t mean it was hs game. Could have been a 11u game where umpires “should” make mistakes bc that’s where they’re learning too

What I should have said in my post was "making SH*# up" ... not misapplication of rules

[SeeingEyeDog]

I do not typically put the ball back into play with the bases empty. For example nobody on, batter fouls it back to the screen, I hand F2 a new baseball, the foul ball is retrieved, F2 throws to F1 and now the batter, F2 and F1 are all alert and ready to go...I let the pitcher go at his pace. Obviously, if there is a quick pitch or something out of synch, I will address that.

My question is...I WILL put the ball back into play coming out of an over the fence HR even though again, like the above scenario, the bases are empty. Honestly, it just feels like the right thing to do there...thoughts, brothers?

~Dawg

[Thunderheads]

2 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

I do not typically put the ball back into play with the bases empty. For example nobody on, batter fouls it back to the screen, I hand F2 a new baseball, the foul ball is retrieved, F2 throws to F1 and now the batter, F2 and F1 are all alert and ready to go...I let the pitcher go at his pace. Obviously, if there is a quick pitch or something out of synch, I will address that.

My question is...I WILL put the ball back into play coming out of an over the fence HR even though again, like the above scenario, the bases are empty. Honestly, it just feels like the right thing to do there...thoughts, brothers?

~Dawg

PUT THE BALL BACK IN PLAY after it goes 'dead' every time.  It's just good practice, and at the end of the day, it's the proper way/mechanic (at our level).   You don't see this every time on the MLB field, but ... that's an MLB field  

[noumpere]

35 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

What I should have said in my post was "making SH*# up" ... not misapplication of rules

I place some of the blame on the ass't coach as well -- trying for a cheap, non-baseball out after his pitcher got beat.

I do recognize there's a fine line between using the rules to your advantage (assuming that he had been right in the rule application here, which he was not), and just playing baseball.

[Guest Brad]

1 hour ago, SH0102 said:

We’ve all been there, young, new, learning, I’ve misapplied rules in youth ball and such and learned from them.

I don’t begrudge umpires for making a mistake, but I wish I could tell them, “if you’re unsure of a rule, always side with the less controversial ruling, then make sure you look it up as soon as you get home”.

These guys made up a rule, or were “convinced” by the other coach it was an out.  Again, they don’t know the rule, fine, it happens, but just tell the coach, “coach, he shouldn’t have done it but it had no impact on the play, you’re not getting a cheap out here”.  If they were wrong, they’re wrong, but that’s a lot less controversial than taking away a HR and calling him out.

And btw, just bc it’s NFHS rules doesn’t mean it was hs game. Could have been a 11u game where umpires “should” make mistakes bc that’s where they’re learning too

It was a varsity high school game. Conference semi-finals

[MadMax]

1 hour ago, Guest Brad said:

An assistant screams he is out, took his helmet off. Umpires get together and call him out.

 

33 minutes ago, SH0102 said:

I don’t begrudge umpires for making a mistake, but I wish I could tell them, “if you’re unsure of a rule, always side with the less controversial ruling, then make sure you look it up as soon as you get home”.

This is it right here. Source Zero. If you were to pry into why that DTAssC is screaming “He’s out! He took his helmet off!”, 99 times out of 100 the reason will be – “It was called on me/us (in a game / season prior)”. 

Viral umpiring. - the single-most damaging aspect of our profession. Make s#!t up because ya don’t know the rule. 

@SH0102, I read your entire post, and while I appreciate what you’re saying, I cannot endorse the tone. Learning or not, we can’t coddle guys who make s#!t up when the Rules are readily available to us. It’s like someone plopping down a brown brick in front of us, and declaring, “I made chocolate cake, aren’t I awesome?!”, and we come to find out they used pancake mix, 4 eggs (instead of just 2), “some” oil, baking spray instead of soda, threw some chocolate chips and Hershey’s syrup in, and then baked it until it “looked good”… 

💩

The response they want to hear is, “Oh wow, thank you! Mmmm… <hrk cough cough hrk>”. The response we give too often is “Well, hey, at least you were trying. Good effort!” The response we really need to give is, “Didja read the f*€king recipe?!?!” 

What truly upsets me is the “Umpires (got) together… “ part. So not one of them calls it “in the moment”, when it happens (which would have been bad enough), but then they get together and discuss it?!?! And all they can arrive at is a collaborative s#!t sandwich of made-up falseness?!?! 

Viral umpiring. 2 (or more) umpires now believe they got the “ruling” right, and they go off to their next games, and tell their partners “Oh hey, in a game I did last week, we had to call a kid out for tapping his helmet with his coach after a home run”. Then, too, coaches and players and parents now (falsely) believe that an act – even similar to it – constitutes an out. Or, worse, that by just whining and “bringing it to the attention of an umpire”, some “justice” will be meted out. And now, there’s an infection afflicting baseball in that locale going forward until somebody corrects it, and corrects it big. 

3 minutes ago, Guest Brad said:

It was a varsity high school game. Conference semi-finals

Sad. I’m disgusted for you. What state, please? If it’s Arizona, I’m making phone calls. 

[Richvee]

56 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

I do not typically put the ball back into play with the bases empty. For example nobody on, batter fouls it back to the screen, I hand F2 a new baseball, the foul ball is retrieved, F2 throws to F1 and now the batter, F2 and F1 are all alert and ready to go...I let the pitcher go at his pace. Obviously, if there is a quick pitch or something out of synch, I will address that.

My question is...I WILL put the ball back into play coming out of an over the fence HR even though again, like the above scenario, the bases are empty. Honestly, it just feels like the right thing to do there...thoughts, brothers?

~Dawg

I always put it back in play. Maybe not always verbal. On a foul ball, no one on, probably just a point. Just good practice. 

[Jimurray]

17 minutes ago, Guest Brad said:

It was a varsity high school game. Conference semi-finals

Are protests allowed in that state? And did 4 or 2 umps get together?

[Thunderheads]

16 minutes ago, MadMax said:

20 minutes ago, Guest Brad said:

It was a varsity high school game. Conference semi-finals

Sad. I’m disgusted for you. What state, please? If it’s Arizona, I’m making phone calls. 

MY GOD .... makes it EVEN WORSE!

[MadMax]

There’s no logic being used in this call. The entire umpire discussion can be torpedoed with one simple question – 

“What if his helmet had fallen off while he rounding 1B?” 

No, they’re going the “sportsmanship” route – the “show up the other team”, celebratory crap that we (umpires) somehow feel compelled to address, correct, and impose punitive action for. So we call an Out, “cuz dat will teach ‘em”. 

There are no grounds for it. 

[Richvee]

51 minutes ago, MadMax said:

No, they’re going the “sportsmanship” route – the “show up the other team”, celebratory crap that we (umpires) somehow feel compelled to address, correct, and impose punitive action for. So we call an Out, “cuz dat will teach ‘em”. 

There are no grounds for it. 

Even in NCAA…. Who has gone over the deep end with the penalizing of “celebratory acts” (IMO) doesn’t get an out for it. 

[MadMax]

28 minutes ago, Richvee said:

Even in NCAA…. Who has gone over the deep end with the penalizing of “celebratory acts” (IMO) doesn’t get an out for it. 

That’s because there’s zero – none, nothing, no amount – Rules backing for it. Even in Casebooks, Manuals, and Interpretive Guides. 

No, this was made up and… expelled (produced?)… from the south end of the north-facing crew. Coach influence is a non-factor; you (the umpires) are in complete control of the game, and you $h!t it all away. 

[Mudisfun]

2 hours ago, Jimurray said:

Are protests allowed in that state? And did 4 or 2 umps get together?

For CIF playoffs, the umpires are the protest committee. We work 3 man until late in the tournament, so the procedure is for 1 umpire to remain on the field, (to be a target I expect), and for the other 2 to run to the locker room (read parking lot/car), review the rule and casebook plays and then to come back to the field, hope their partner has not been mugged and make their ruling on the protest. 

The funny part in this story is that no one is jumping on the fact that the Assistance Coach is the one screaming... Shut him up.

 

[Jimurray]

42 minutes ago, Mudisfun said:

For CIF playoffs, the umpires are the protest committee. We work 3 man until late in the tournament, so the procedure is for 1 umpire to remain on the field, (to be a target I expect), and for the other 2 to run to the locker room (read parking lot/car), review the rule and casebook plays and then to come back to the field, hope their partner has not been mugged and make their ruling on the protest. 

The funny part in this story is that no one is jumping on the fact that the Assistance Coach is the one screaming... Shut him up.

 

Are you saying this happened in CA?

[Mudisfun]

25 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

Are you saying this happened in CA?

No, I have no idea where the OP's issue occurred. I was pointing out that in a playoff game, we have a mechanism for the aggrieved team to protest.

[MadMax]

1 hour ago, Mudisfun said:

The funny part in this story is that no one is jumping on the fact that the Assistance Coach is the one screaming... Shut him up.

No, that’s the tragic part. 

None of the umpires made the call in-moment, real-time. That would have bad enough. Instead, the umpires got together and concocted this unprecedented ruling/non-ruling (because it isn’t a rule). 

A far more… sufferable sequence would see the DTAssC put in his place, the DTHC questioning it, and being refuted (“Not in the rules, Coach. An Out is not in the Rules”), and if he wants to protest, then so be it. Then crew fishes out the Rulebook, or calls the Commissioner’s office, and the answer comes from an official source. Place the impetus and burden of proof on them (the DT, especially that rat AssC) to plead for a review of the Rules, not the OT… post-facto. 

Good grief, I really hope the aggrieved team (the OT at the time of the HR) won that game, and we’re just discussing “what could and should have been”. 

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, Mudisfun said:

No, I have no idea where the OP's issue occurred. I was pointing out that in a playoff game, we have a mechanism for the aggrieved team to protest.

But we don't know if there was a mechanism for the OP's team to protest. Texas baseball, as does MLB, does not allow protests. But there is no one to call in NY for Texas umpires. 

[MadMax]

1 hour ago, Jimurray said:

But we don't know if there was a mechanism for the OP's team to protest. Texas baseball, as does MLB, does not allow protests. But there is no one to call in NY for Texas umpires. 

Your perspective is valid, Jim. 

It shouldn’t have to be protested. That crew – collectively – made $#it up. Again, there’s nothing in the Rules to back them. Not even the (what is it in Fed?) umpire-can-make-any-decision-yadda yadda yadda rule. The burden-of-proof should be on the DT. 

I don’t care how harsh I sound, but I do not and will not coddle guys that make $#!t up without exhausting every available resource. And yes, rules knowledge is a resource. Listening to the rookie on the crew is a resource. Calling a supervisor is a resource. This isn’t “umpire judgement”, this is Rules. 

In order to qualify for post-season work, I not only had to take the NFHS test, but I had to pass it with a 90%. I got a 98% (missed 1). I work post-season because of my Rules knowledge, game management, and feedback from peers and coaches. One last time, the dire component of this is that the crew got together, and still got it wrong. An action like this calls into question how and why guys are assigned / given post-season games. According to the evidence, that system is broken. 

[The Man in Blue]

Can't speak for other states, but the system absolutely is broken.

We have some convoluted-ass power ranking system which awards you points for:

• "being promoted" which means that you caught the magic 2-week window to have three coaches and officials recommend you and you took the special promotion test ... oh, which is right before the season (not in the off-season which might make sense). 
• Your score on your "Part 1" exam (I'm never lower than a 96% which is one missed question)
•  Previous post-season experience (so ... you are awarding me points for already having points last year ... how do I get experience without those points?)
• The number of coaches you convinced to online and "rate" you after their game (Their rating is literally a 1-5 with no breakdowns or explanations.)
• The number of coaches who would put you on their Top 15 (also "political")
• How long ago you attended a clinic
• How many games you say you have worked (no verification)

So, several years ago I crossed post-season off my list.  If somebody sees me work and wants me to work, they have my number.  If the state association can't be bothered to come out and actually watch its umpires, then it isn't that important to them either.