FED Catcher's Obstruction

[SeeingEyeDog]

 

I learned something. Maybe you will, too...

~Dawg

[Jimurray]

29 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

 

I learned something. Maybe you will, too...

~Dawg

Worthwhile, even though I have the rule aced. But no firm advice as to letting the coach know he has an option in some cases. General consensus among us amateurs is to ask the coach if he wants the penalty or the play.

[834k3r]

1 hour ago, Jimurray said:

Worthwhile, even though I have the rule aced. But no firm advice as to letting the coach know he has an option in some cases. General consensus among us amateurs is to ask the coach if he wants the penalty or the play.

Our association talked about this during the pre-season clinics. As a group, we're opting to rule on the obstruction, then allowing the coach to ask to take the result of the play. We discussed at length the coaches may or may not be aware of the option.

[SeeingEyeDog]

Yup...is it football? Do we go to coach and give them the option (if they have an option to take) or must they know the rule and come to us? If they must come to us, how long do we wait?

~Dawg

[noumpere]

11 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

Yup...is it football? Do we go to coach and give them the option (if they have an option to take) or must they know the rule and come to us? If they must come to us, how long do we wait?

~Dawg

For HS *(unless they've changed in the past several years):

[JaxRolo]

22 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

Yup...is it football? Do we go to coach and give them the option (if they have an option to take) or must they know the rule and come to us? If they must come to us, how long do we wait?

~Dawg

Personally, I don't go to the coach... They don't know the rule that's on them...

[maven]

All amateur games should operate according to the FED procedure. I'll expect coaches to know the rule when they make their living from coaching.

[Kevin_K]

4 hours ago, maven said:

All amateur games should operate according to the FED procedure. I'll expect coaches to know the rule when they make their living from coaching.

So the guy who runs the baseball academy and four travel team should be expected to actually know the rules?

[maven]

10 hours ago, Kevin_K said:

So the guy who runs the baseball academy and four travel team should be expected to actually know the rules?

[BigBlue4u]

On 4/18/2023 at 10:24 AM, noumpere said:

Yup...is it football? Do we go to coach and give them the option (if they have an option to take) or must they know the rule and come to us? If they must come to us, how long do we wait?

I think we use a little common sense and just tell the coach his options and ask him what he wants to do.  Should coaches know the rules? Of course.  Do coaches actually know the rules?  Of course not.  But, we aren't running a rules test, we are just facilitating the game.

[noumpere]

44 minutes ago, BigBlue4u said:

On 4/18/2023 at 12:24 PM, noumpere said:

Yup...is it football? Do we go to coach and give them the option (if they have an option to take) or must they know the rule and come to us? If they must come to us, how long do we wait?

I think we use a little common sense and just tell the coach his options and ask him what he wants to do.  Should coaches know the rules? Of course.  Do coaches actually know the rules?  Of course not.  But, we aren't running a rules test, we are just facilitating the game.

You appear to have quoted me, but that's not something I said AND it's in direct opposition to my position on this issue.

[BigBlue4u]

noumpire....my bad and my apology.  I didn't scan far enough down the message to get dawg's name included as the author.

[Jimurray]

On 4/18/2023 at 8:02 PM, Kevin_K said:

So the guy who runs the baseball academy and four travel team should be expected to actually know the rules?

Carl Childress, Jon Bible and Ken Allen were of the opinion in 2012 that NCAA umpires and below should offer the coach the choice. What NCAA opines currently I don't know.

[maven]

I don't know how widespread the feeling here is that amateur coaches—many of them doing daddy ball—should be expected to know the ins and outs of rules they might see twice in their "careers." But I hope you will consider this perspective.

I came up, like others here, learning from Childress, Bible, and other quasi-authorities, who had decades of experience umpiring. I wrote (paid) articles for Childress on his officiating website, and contributed to the forum over there (it was officiating.com, a domain which has since been purchased and repurposed to sell things). I agreed then and still agree with Carl's philosophy of umpiring amateur baseball (and indeed officiating all amateur sports).

That philosophy held as an axiom that youth sports—perhaps up to NCAA, certainly up to HS varsity—are developmental and instructional. That means all participants—players, coaches, and umpires—are learning the game and getting better. Our job as adults participating in those games is to foster those ends, in our chosen roles (coaches or umpires). 

The HS varsity coaches I know exhibit quite a range of rules knowledge. I know a couple who are certified umpires. A couple others are either totally ignorant or play an ignoramus on TV. But our job is not only to make rulings, but to communicate them, appropriately, clearly, and in real time. So, when coach has a choice, I'm taking that to him (and I think I've seen CO/CI twice where the batter put the ball in play). 

As for the analogy with football: I would say that cuts both ways. No, baseball isn't football. But, first, 99% of the time we do not approach coach to ask whether he wants to accept or decline a penalty. It's almost always obvious. We ask only when it's not obvious.

More important, however, the analogy misses the point. Coaches always know that they have an option for every penalty, to accept or decline. In baseball, coaches almost never have an option. And even some umpires can't remember the couple of infractions that give the coach an option. If we, whose job it is to be rules experts, can't always remember when to give an option, why should we expect that of coaches?

So my advice remains: promote the ends of amateur sports and give coaches the option where they have one. Do not expect them to know they have a choice. 

[beerguy55]

On 4/18/2023 at 11:36 AM, JaxRolo said:

Personally, I don't go to the coach... They don't know the rule that's on them...

That's a cop out.

And in direct conflict with the typical umpire axiom - Coach, leave the umpiring to the umpires.

So, which way do you want it...you want the coach knowing the rule book cold or not.   Why would you expect a coach who gets paid literally nothing, and volunteers 10, 20, 30 or more hours per week to know a set of rules to a standard/level that is not met by most of the umpires who are being paid (nominally) and it's actually part of their job description.

It's bad enough when I find myself in games where I do know the rule book better than the guy arbitrating the game, and I can't do anything about it...to then have yet a different umpire tell me it's my fault if I hadn't memorized a particular comment to an obscure subclause to a little-used rule.

[aaluck]

On 4/18/2023 at 9:14 AM, SeeingEyeDog said:

Maybe you will, too...

I did. Thank you.

[aaluck]

On 4/21/2023 at 10:30 AM, beerguy55 said:

that is not met by most of the umpires who are being paid (nominally) and it's actually part of their job description.

Although I agree with 99% of your statement--I do not expect a varsity coach to know some obscure rule that may come into play once a year, if lucky.  However, I do expect that my employees read the rules that pertain to their employment--as I suspect any employer would.

Reading the rules of your job should be expected (anywhere) and IS part of their (the coach's) job description (I'm not talking about youth/JV level coaches).  If you are the head coach of a varsity baseball program you should have read the rule book more than once. Most have not.  

I know the because the most common argument from these coaches is base awards on overthrows out of play--a simple, simple rule to apply and understand.  Further, the same coach will argue this two weeks from the last game, which clearly tells me he didn't even bother to go look at the rule after it came up two weeks prior.

[Jimurray]

4 hours ago, aaluck said:

 

I know the because the most common argument from these coaches is base awards on overthrows out of play--a simple, simple rule to apply and understand.  Further, the same coach will argue this two weeks from the last game, which clearly tells me he didn't even bother to go look at the rule after it came up two weeks prior.

He is still arguing 2 weeks later not because he didn't go to the rule book, but because he went to that one guy in your association, you know him, and was told you got it wrong. Two scenarios come to mind, coach didn't give the full story or one of your coherts is not a rules guy and he thinks the rule is not that simple.

[JaxRolo]

On 4/21/2023 at 11:30 AM, beerguy55 said:

That's a cop out.

And in direct conflict with the typical umpire axiom - Coach, leave the umpiring to the umpires.

So, which way do you want it...you want the coach knowing the rule book cold or not.   Why would you expect a coach who gets paid literally nothing, and volunteers 10, 20, 30 or more hours per week to know a set of rules to a standard/level that is not met by most of the umpires who are being paid (nominally) and it's actually part of their job description.

It's bad enough when I find myself in games where I do know the rule book better than the guy arbitrating the game, and I can't do anything about it...to then have yet a different umpire tell me it's my fault if I hadn't memorized a particular comment to an obscure subclause to a little-used rule.

Nope- not a cop out...  Coaches think they already know the rules better than we do... In my opinion they need to know the rules if they want to coach.... 

How many arguments would we not have to have if they knew the rules...