FED 6.2.2 c

[concertman1971]

Have any of you guys called this during a HS game? I don't have a problem enforcing the 20 second clock, but I think it would be grabbing the proverbial $hitty end of the stick in a HS game. 

Had one last night I was on the dish, every pitch had to be recorded on a piece of paper by the HT HC, then he had to flip to a different page to get a combination of numbers, then say them to F2 who inevitably could not hear him and he had to repeat the numbers. Of course, F2 would give the signs to F1, who of course couldn't see the 27 signs he was given, so he had to ask for them again. 

I did not have a watch so I couldn't confirm 20, but I'm sure that 7-10 times we went well past it. 

Just looking for some input. 

[SH0102]

I’m typically not a fan of picking and choosing what rules to enforce and which to ignore , but this has been discussed in the HS forum and consensus is to not pick that booger unless it’s an issue, which it sounds like yours was.

For your game, I’d prob start by telling the coach between innings about the rule, that it’s enforced when there are extreme instances of slow play, and that you will be enforcing it if they can’t pitch within a reasonable amount of time.

It’s prob early and the coach is implementing some system to show how smart he is at creating an uncrackable code. I’d give some leniency bc it’s early and they have kinks in their communication chain, but I’m not letting them play at a snails pace either 

[The Man in Blue]

 

I don't care coach.

 

 

No coach.  He cannot take that out on the mound with him.

[Thunderheads]

I've never been in a HS game where this rule was enforced, nor have I heard of any of my colleagues enforcing it.  HOWEVER ..... HERE in the situation in the OP, .... YES, .... follow @SH0102's advice!    Get it stopped ASAP.   If it continues, ... start calling 'balls'  

[concertman1971]

Thanks @SH0102 and @Thunderheads I have also never seen it called in a HS game and i like the idea of addressing it early and 'hopefully' not having to enforce. 

My instincts tell me this rule will start to be enforced the way the hybrid rule was a few years ago. Most guys will let it go until one guy in a playoff situation calls it on a team from a district he does not umpire in and all hell will break loose, at which point the state will have an official interp

[JSam21]

The problem with the way that the rule is written, it is unenforceable. The pitcher and batter have the exact same time requirement, meaning the batter can step in and be alert at 19 seconds and the pitcher would be violated for failure to deliver the pitch in time. So, until it is actually enforceable, it won't be enforced. 

[johnnyg08]

2 minutes ago, JSam21 said:

The problem with the way that the rule is written, it is unenforceable. The pitcher and batter have the exact same time requirement, meaning the batter can step in and be alert at 19 seconds and the pitcher would be violated for failure to deliver the pitch in time. So, until it is actually enforceable, it won't be enforced. 

I think it is enforceable, but perhaps with a "pick up your pace" warning first. 

The rule is for the pitcher. So the pitcher should be ready to pitch. If the batter is gaming the system, then we obviously use our discretion. 

The rule also provides for a legal feint so the pitcher has some outs....but ideally, we need them to pick up the pace.

In 25 years of umpiring, I've only warned a pitcher one time when he was coming close. (Because I'm not using a stop watch it's on my "count") 

And we didn't have a problem after that. 

Warn and enforce. Call a ball one time and you'll be good forever. It's not a death penalty either. It's a ball.

Back in the day the argument was made that a pitcher/team could use this rule to intentionally walk a batter w/o having to throw a pitch. 

If you don't like the rule, enforce it. That's the best way to get rid of what you might perceive to be a bad rule. 

 

[JSam21]

21 minutes ago, johnnyg08 said:

I think it is enforceable, but perhaps with a "pick up your pace" warning first. 

The rule is for the pitcher. So the pitcher should be ready to pitch. If the batter is gaming the system, then we obviously use our discretion. 

The rule also provides for a legal feint so the pitcher has some outs....but ideally, we need them to pick up the pace.

In 25 years of umpiring, I've only warned a pitcher one time when he was coming close. (Because I'm not using a stop watch it's on my "count") 

And we didn't have a problem after that. 

Warn and enforce. Call a ball one time and you'll be good forever. It's not a death penalty either. It's a ball.

Back in the day the argument was made that a pitcher/team could use this rule to intentionally walk a batter w/o having to throw a pitch. 

If you don't like the rule, enforce it. That's the best way to get rid of what you might perceive to be a bad rule. 

 

I fully agree with the bolded statement. However, the rule doesn't tell us when the the :20 starts, just that its :20. It doesn't require the batter to be ready at any point other than at the :20 mark. I would love to enforce it like I do at the college levels, however we can't use that methodology because it isn't codified at the HS level.  

[beerguy55]

1 hour ago, JSam21 said:

I fully agree with the bolded statement. However, the rule doesn't tell us when the the :20 starts, just that its :20. It doesn't require the batter to be ready at any point other than at the :20 mark. I would love to enforce it like I do at the college levels, however we can't use that methodology because it isn't codified at the HS level.  

The rule very clearly tells us when :20 starts - we may not agree, jt may not be practical if there's no accompanying batter obligation, and there could be an interpretative discussion I suppose...but letter of the rule is "within 20 seconds after the pitcher has received the ball".   The only exception to that, in my mind, is if the ball isn't live.

 

Like said by others...enforce it as written and it will get fixed soon enough.

[concertman1971]

@johnnyg08 Warn and enforce. Call a ball one time and you'll be good forever. It's not a death penalty either. It's a ball

While I agree, my spidey sense tells me that with some coaches, this will turn into the proverbial $HITshow. Some of the older coaches still want to play by the old school rules. While I am not a fan of picking and choosing which rules to enforce/ignore, in this case, I am willing to wait until I hear what my association wants us to do. I have a feeling it will go uncalled (like the hybrid was) until someone makes it an issue in a state game. Then....

 

[johnnyg08]

1 hour ago, concertman1971 said:

@johnnyg08 Warn and enforce. Call a ball one time and you'll be good forever. It's not a death penalty either. It's a ball

While I agree, my spidey sense tells me that with some coaches, this will turn into the proverbial $HITshow. Some of the older coaches still want to play by the old school rules. While I am not a fan of picking and choosing which rules to enforce/ignore, in this case, I am willing to wait until I hear what my association wants us to do. I have a feeling it will go uncalled (like the hybrid was) until someone makes it an issue in a state game. Then....

 

Why wait? This isn't new and don't assume that the coaches know the rules. Either way you're going to be approximating the time. 

The NCAA rule is so good they chaged it less than a month into the season. 

Personally, I think the FED rule is better. 

Less moving parts. 

 

 

[johnnyg08]

Clock starts when F1 receives the ball

 

[mac266]

I own a pitch timer because I work JuCo which uses the NCAA rule book.  So it's set to 20 seconds, just like the NFHS rule.  However, even though the NFHS rule book has the 20 second pitch clock, in my area I'm the only umpire who even owns a pitch timer.  Not a single other umpire (again, in my area) has ever enforced it because they do not have the means (imagine standing on the diamond watching a stop watch). 

So, I'm not picking that booger.  If I did, I would be the only one, and it would confuse pitchers and infuriate coaches.

[MadMax]

3 hours ago, mac266 said:

because they do not have the means (imagine standing on the diamond watching a stop watch). 

I do. 

It sits right there, in my left hand, on a wrist leash. I use this in NAIA, JuCo, and AZ HS, since our state was the first (only?) state to volunteer and enforce the 20-sec. pitch clock. Now, we're more... liberal with our enforcements of such things as resets (we take any play attempt which forces the runner back to the bag as a valid Reset, and there is no limit to resets, unlike NCAA), mound "talks" (catchers can call time and talk without limit; coaches still under a NFHS limit), and Batters are under a 10-second "reminder / warning" (example: "Hey, get in the box and be ready; if you persist in not getting in the box, I will call a Strike on you.") 

I teach others in the (effective) use of a stopwatch. I always go hands-on-knees set, at either B or C, in sync to the pitcher engaging the rubber. If he's not engaged, then I'm not HOK. If he's engaged, I'm HOK set. Every. Time. My PU partners can rely on it like, huh... pun... clockwork. So when it feels like it's getting close, it's not much effort to roll my left hand over and glance down at the display. Being a former catcher, goalie, and basketball player helps, because you have an innate sense of time/timing (basketball = shot clock). 

Sure, the RefTimer is a good tool, but there's no way anyone is going to compel me to use one unless they can prove that the stopwatch method doesn't work. 

[DevildogUmp]

@MadMaxjust out of curiosity, you mentioned a 10 sec "reminder/warning" to the batter, since the FED rules gives the batter 20 seconds (7-3-1 penalty), what is the interpretation in AZ if a batter waits until 19.5 seconds to get set in the box causing the pitcher to go beyond 20 seconds?

[MadMax]

We have NCAA D1 umpires as the upper leadership of our state association, and 1 of them is in the NFHS committee. Based on his and our college umpire colleagues’ input, our commissioner allowed us to be the first state to enforce the rule, with slight college… influences. 

We don’t have a reset limit. With an adjudged play attempt, our BU has the latitude to call for a reset, or to say, “Clock’s still running.” A mere, token step off does not bring a reset. An aggressive step off that forces the Runner back to the bag (typically) is enough for a reset. 

Yes, there isn’t a penalty for the batter in the existing NFHS rules. Our commissioner approved an interpretation, for AZ, that prompts the PU to direct – “forcefully remind” – the batter to get in the box and get ready. If the BU notices that the batter isn’t even close to being ready in the box at ten seconds. He is to call Time. The PU will then warn the batter that he needs to be ready in the box, and that if he persists in delaying, he (PU) will call a strike. 

It has definitely quickened the game for us. Our experience and performance with it, and influence by the college game, will shape this rule in NFHS for the next years following. 

[The Man in Blue]

Sometimes the simplest answer is the best:

Once the pitcher receives the ball, start your 20 seconds.  If you reach the 20 seconds and nothing has happened, determine who you are waiting on.  If the pitcher is not able to deliver because the batter isn't ready, then the batter is the one you penalize.  If the batter is ready and the pitcher is not, then you penalize the pitcher.  Doesn't seem that hard.

[humanbackstop19]

Fresh off my college season concluding this past weekend, I strolled out for my 1st HS game of the year.  I knew the pace would be much slower.  As an "experiment" I brought my timer out on the bases with me, curious to see how many potential violations of the 20-second protocol from the OP we would have.  In one 7-inning game, we had 16 violations that would have met college standards, most of which were going over the 20-second time limit.  At the same time, only 1 batter would have been dinged for a violation not being alert at the 10-second mark.  I notated all violations with a tally on my visits/conferences card (Yes, I keep one in HS ball, too). Pace of play is a major issue now at the HS level - something needs to be done.  I think I will continue to do this a few more games and cross-check data.  

[BigBlue4u]

On 3/14/2023 at 8:33 PM, concertman1971 said:

Have any of you guys called this during a HS game? I don't have a problem enforcing the 20 second clock, but I think it would be grabbing the proverbial $hitty end of the stick in a HS game. 

Had one last night I was on the dish, every pitch had to be recorded on a piece of paper by the HT HC, then he had to flip to a different page to get a combination of numbers, then say them to F2 who inevitably could not hear him and he had to repeat the numbers. Of course, F2 would give the signs to F1, who of course couldn't see the 27 signs he was given, so he had to ask for them again. 

I did not have a watch so I couldn't confirm 20, but I'm sure that 7-10 times we went well past it. 

Just looking for some input. 

How's this for input.  At its rules meeting in June, the NFHS is taking a close look at electronic communication between coaches and players.  The reason?  For the exact situation

 

On 3/14/2023 at 8:33 PM, concertman1971 said:

Have any of you guys called this during a HS game? I don't have a problem enforcing the 20 second clock, but I think it would be grabbing the proverbial $hitty end of the stick in a HS game. 

Had one last night I was on the dish, every pitch had to be recorded on a piece of paper by the HT HC, then he had to flip to a different page to get a combination of numbers, then say them to F2 who inevitably could not hear him and he had to repeat the numbers. Of course, F2 would give the signs to F1, who of course couldn't see the 27 signs he was given, so he had to ask for them again. 

I did not have a watch so I couldn't confirm 20, but I'm sure that 7-10 times we went well past it. 

Just looking for some input. 

 

On 3/14/2023 at 8:33 PM, concertman1971 said:

I did not have a watch so I couldn't confirm 20, but I'm sure that 7-10 times we went well past it. 

Just looking for some input. 

You want some input?  Here it is.  At its June rules meeting, the NFHS is taking a close look at electronic communication between coaches and players.  The reason?  For the exact situation you cited.

[The Man in Blue]

Yay.  So we can spend 15 minutes while the coach and the catcher and the pitcher try 12 sets of batteries, tell them to repeat because they can't hear, ask for time to relay manual signals ... 

I know we often lament NFHS for being behind the times, but is this really what we need to be spending our time and money on in high school?

Hint: it will NOT speed things up.  It will allow more time to play stupid games.

Actually, you know what?  I want an earpiece, too.  That way the coaches can let me know when it is a strike.

[Senor Azul]

The FED does cover your concerns about a batter delaying his entering the batter's box and preventing the pitcher from complying with the rule. The current case book has at least five cases that address your objections--you can find them at 7.3.1 situations A through E.

7.3.1 A tells us the umpire should caution the batter that he has "x" number of seconds left.

7.3.1 C tells us that if the batter delays entering the box thus making it nearly impossible for the pitcher to comply with the rule, a strike will be charged to the count.

7.3.1 E tells us that whoever is responsible for the delay is the one who is penalized.